[Ralph III]

Hello All,
I'm laying some porcelain tile this Thursday (10ft x 40ft outdoor patio) and have a few questions. The owners/friends purchased the tile, thinset(Mapei, polymer) and grout(Mapei, polymer) from Lowes.

1) The Tile has interlocking ends as seen in this link. Nothing I've ever dealt with but it appears a staggered pattern would be best? Whereas instead of butting the interlocking end completely even with one adjacent tile, it will instead butt against two tiles (half way). That would eliminate having solid grout lines and seem to keep this brick/rock concept in play?

2) There is only about 1/32in between the tiles upon interlocking them. Lowes gave them "sanded" grout so that will have to be returned. My question is this; do I need to mix my grout a little thinner than normal in order to accomodate the small grout lines -OR- will "un-sanded" grout work just fine as normal?

3) Lastly, I usually seal grout last but what about the pre-mixed Grout Boost? They live 80mi away and this would save me from having to make an extra trip. It would also allow them to use their patio sooner....

Thanks,
Ralph

 

[JazMan]

Ralph,

I think you're liable to have a big problem with that tile if you install it as you described outdoors. :yes:

How are gonna handle expansion joints for one thing? Is the slab sloped? Total sun exposure or partial? How about cracks and have you thought about installing something to help prevent new cracks from telegraphing to the tile?

I assume the slab has control joints or cold joints. If not, it should. You must honor those joints. Plus you must make additional expansion joints in the tile and they must be at least 1/4" wide, but in Alabama should probably be wider.

How much experience do you have in outdoor tile work?

Jaz

 

[Ralph III]

Ralph,

I think you're liable to have a big problem with that tile if you install it as you described outdoors. :yes:

How are gonna handle expansion joints for one thing? Is the slab sloped? Total sun exposure or partial? How about cracks and have you thought about installing something to help prevent new cracks from telegraphing to the tile?

I assume the slab has control joints or cold joints. If not, it should. You must honor those joints. Plus you must make additional expansion joints in the tile and they must be at least 1/4" wide, but in Alabama should probably be wider.

How much experience do you have in outdoor tile work?

Jaz

Thanks for the reply Jazman and I'll try to answer your questions. Please correct me where I'm wrong and/or offer suggestions as you see fit....


1) First, I've never installed outdoor tile and that is why I've made this inquiry. My sister, who probably has installed outdoor tile, having done quite a bit more tile work than myself over the years, will be assisting though.

2) All the materials were supplied by Lowe's and recommended for this project. The Mapei grout and thinset are both polymer based products and recommended by Mapei for such outdoor usage, due to allowing expansion.

I'm not sure what more precaution I can take in this regards? I may however check into an expoxy grout as that reads more durable than cement based grout and the former is stain proof?

3) They do appear to have expansion joints of some sort in the existing concrete patio with the typical additional (spider) cracks. I realize the grout lines should fall on these expansion joints but that would be pure happenstance.

What accomodation could be made here, as otherwise I assume some cracking will typically occur over time on outdoor patio's irrespective? I assume the polymer based thinset, applied with 1/2 trowel as I'm using, will help limit this. I haven't found any dilineating suggested methods online or as per manufacturer?

4) I can go with a larger grout line, such as 1/4in., but that would seem to be a useless proposition? The tile are interlocking on the ends and there is only a 1/32 in. gap between them as such. I don't have a number for the manufacturer of the tile, will attempt to get one Wednesday, but it would seem 1/32 in. is the tollerance the tile was made for?

I say that because the tile could never expand to 1/4 in., truly much beyond 1/32 in., without cracking every tile where they interlock?


5) I stopped by Lowe's to examine the tile and to lay out a few patterns. (a) First pattern is two simple parallel rows (four tile shown). This would have long grout lines running left to right as pictured between the rows. I could go with large grout lines between the rows, such as 1/4, but again don't see the purpose? If the tiles expand much beyond 1/32 in. they are all going to crack where they interlock anyhow? This doesn't seem to be the tollerance they were built for?
(b) The second pattern is a "staggered" pattern (five tile shown). This would seem to be the pattern the manufacturer intented because it maintains the busy pattern (no long grout lines). A 1/32 in. grout line would be maintained in all instances with this pattern however....

Thanks,
Ralph

 

[oh'mike]

Jaz will be your best help---I just wanted to comment on 'Grout Boost"---Forget it---I've never used it but from the disaster stories here--I believe the product makes the grout a nightmare to clean and often ruins the tile job----

 

[Ralph III]

Jaz will be your best help---I just wanted to comment on 'Grout Boost"---Forget it---I've never used it but from the disaster stories here--I believe the product makes the grout a nightmare to clean and often ruins the tile job----

Thanks Oh'mike and duly noted! I'm going to consider the grout and sealer carefully for this product as expansion is my main concern in this case.

Jaz was correct in bringing up some things and there are indeed some steps which will have to be taken prior to laying the tile.

1) The homeowners claim they do not have expansion joints or cold joints as it was a single pour. They do however have cracks which has arisen through the years due to some normal settling. They also had a few pro's look at it when pricing the tile job, and it was stated such wasn't an issue.

I will fill all the cracks and possibly use some isolation membrane for the large one's?

2) I've since read that it is recommended to have tile expansion joints every 8ft to 10ft, as JazMan was pointing out, so this is the guideline I will follow. I will keep the pattern but it looks like I will have to break it into four sections, allowing a 1/4 expansion grout line between each section.

3) I hope to get a number for the tile manufacturer in order to make a few other inquiries.

Other suggestions/comments are welcome!

Thanks,
Ralph

 

[Ralph III]

duplicate

 

[JazMan]

Ralph,

I will try to guide you as best I can in this format. I could write a book on how your job should be done so it'll last for many years, so you're gonna hafta do research yourself too.

1) First, I've never installed outdoor tile and that is why I've made this inquiry. My sister, who probably has installed outdoor tile, having done quite a bit more tile work than myself over the years, will be assisting though.

It really doesn't matter whether she's every installed tiles outdoors, it's whether you guys know how to do it the right way.

2) All the materials were supplied by Lowe's and recommended for this project. The Mapei grout and thinset are both polymer based products and recommended by Mapei for such outdoor usage, due to allowing expansion.

Nothing wrong with the materials, but they do not allow expansion that will save your project. Who the heck told you that? You need expansion joints every 8-12 ft. in every direction and at the perimeter. The slab should have been cut so it would have 'cracked' there and not in a irregular fashion.

3) They do appear to have expansion joints of some sort in the existing concrete patio with the typical additional (spider) cracks. I realize the grout lines should fall on these expansion joints but that would be pure happenstance.

You have to make expansion joints directly over the joints. This of course spoils most patterns, but don't despair. If that's a problem, Noble makes a product that is a solution for that problem. Find Noble Deck. http://www.noblecompany.com/Portals...ptions/Noble Deck Product Decription 0912.pdf

4) I can go with a larger grout line, such as 1/4in., but that would seem to be a useless proposition? The tile are interlocking on the ends and there is only a 1/32 in. gap between them as such. I don't have a number for the manufacturer of the tile, will attempt to get one Wednesday, but it would seem 1/32 in. is the tollerance the tile was made for?

My first thought was someone made a bad selection for outdoor use.

I say that because the tile could never expand to 1/4 in., truly much beyond 1/32 in., without cracking every tile where they interlock?

Porcelain tile will shrink & expand approx. .0006% +- per 1 degree of temperature change. Floors buckle and tent all the time when expansion joints are not installed. Can happen next year or in 10 years. I've seen and repair a bunch. There's pics available if you search.

5) I stopped by Lowe's to examine the tile and to lay out a few patterns. (a) First pattern is two simple parallel rows (four tile shown). This would have long grout lines running left to right as pictured between the rows. I could go with large grout lines between the rows, such as 1/4, but again don't see the purpose? If the tiles expand much beyond 1/32 in. they are all going to crack where they interlock anyhow? This doesn't seem to be the tollerance they were built for?
(b) The second pattern is a "staggered" pattern (five tile shown). This would seem to be the pattern the manufacturer intented because it maintains the busy pattern (no long grout lines). A 1/32 in. grout line would be maintained in all instances with this pattern however....

You could orient the tiles like in the first example since you can get away with only 3 expansion joints going the 10' way. (plus at the perimeter if there's a wall there).

Next post by Ralph,

1) The homeowners claim they do not have expansion joints or cold joints as it was a single pour. They do however have cracks which has arisen through the years due to some normal settling. They also had a few pro's look at it when pricing the tile job, and it was stated such wasn't an issue

If they didn't mention special precautions for cracks and outdoor installation, they are not pros. It's just how they may make a living. The laws of physics haven't changed.

I will fill all the cracks and possibly use some isolation membrane for the large one's?

What's the point of filling the cracks? You're not painting. Isolation membrane on the whole thing is what is needed, or at minimum a crack isolation mortar.

2) I've since read that it is recommended to have tile expansion joints every 8ft to 10ft, as JazMan was pointing out, so this is the guideline I will follow. I will keep the pattern but it looks like I will have to break it into four sections, allowing a 1/4 expansion grout line between each section.

Yes, exactly. But, no grout in expansion joints. Gotta use caulk and sometimes foam backer-rod too.

3) I hope to get a number for the tile manufacturer in order to make a few other inquiries.

Good luck with that, where do you think that tile is made?

Jaz

 

[Ralph III]

Hello Jazman and thanks for replying.


I've been researching as much as possible and your reasoning seems most plausible. It's the same recommendations as made by ANSI as I've also read, in regards to having expansion joints every 8ft -- 12ft. They however make no specific recommendation as to joint size that I've found?


Cracking is my main concern and why I'm trying to get some definitive answers, which hasn't been easy. Many varying opinions.


1) Anyhow, given the slab is 10ft x 40ft. If I break this into essentially 4 sections (10ft x 10ft) and place an expansion joint between these sections, will this suffice? There will also be expansion joints on two sides where exterior walls exist. The other two sides of the patio are open to the yard.

2) Do the expansion joints have to be 1/4in. wide and straight? Is it impossible to use the natural zig-zag design of the tile for the expansion joints? They only allow about 1/16 or 1/32 between the tiles. However, if I used more expansion joints, say evey 6ft-8ft with caulking, could this suffice? That might allow me to keep a solid pattern but utilize more caulk lines for expansion purposes. Just asking....

3) I spoke with the tile Distributor today (Floors 2000). They are located in Pensacola, Fl. where the job is. They recommended a Sales Rep, who was very knowlegeable, with their product. He stated expansion joints were not necessary with this tile? That is contrary to what I've read and where much of the confusion comes from.

4) The slab photos show there are no expansion joints and the settling cracks. The slab has been there for some 20 years.

Thanks,
Ralph

 

[JazMan]

Ralph,

#1, Perfect, exactly what I said.

#2 Actually in looking this up in the TCNA Handbook again, the minimum for exterior is 3/8" when the joints are 8' apart, minimum 1/2" when 12' on center. The width must increase 1/16" for each 15 degrees F. the tile surface changes greater than 100 F. between summer high and winter low. More but narrower joints might work too?

#3, That guy has no clue. Everything needs expansion joints. Floors, walls, buildings, bridges, airplanes, space shuttles etc.

#4, That slab is not pretty. I would only proceed by installing the expansion joints and either an approved isolation mortar or a membrane such as the Noble Deck I mentioned or Ditra. I would also make them sign an agreement stating that the work is not warrantied in any way. Make sure they have extra tiles for repairs.

Jaz

 

[Ralph III]

Hey JazMan,

What type of caulking would you recommend for the expansion joints and is there anything wrong with using caulking in lieu of grout? Maybe that would help a lot for this project? How long can what you recommend be expected to last?

Thanks,
Ralph

 

[JazMan]

There are many types for caulking with pages of numbers and ASTM specs. But for tile work most people would rather use one that matches the color of their grout, so they have one choice.

Buy the one made to match the grout you're using, it should be available in either unsanded or sanded. The only other recommendation I can make is to be sure to also use backer-rod if the depth is over 1/4" or if the width is wide as in against the perimeter walls.

Jaz

 

[Ralph III]

Thanks JazMan,

The owners picked out essentially a very light colored gray grout (Mapei KeraColor "silver"). If I can find a light colored grout (light gray, etc) then that would suffice. So if you have any recommendation that would be great.

I did come across Laticrete Latasil which seems excellent, but there is only one local distributor and their warehouse only shows 4 tubes. I don't know what color they have in stock either but am going to stop by there today.

Ralph