[JHZR2]

Hello,

I am working on a two story outbuilding, essentially a structure somewhat larger than a two car garage with loft. It was built in the late 1920s, and has had nothing done to it since the late 1990s. It is an unfinished building, that has remained relatively clean and dry over the years, but it has some roof sag and thus some stud wall bowing which Id like to strengthen up and remediate.

I have a professional engineer that has been analyzing the building and will make recommendations. I’d like to do the work I am able to myself, thus the DIY part of it.

The building is about 26x40, two stories, unfinished, constructed with 2x4 walls, 2x8 floor joists, and 2x6 roof rafters. The rafters span 16ft from center to top plate. At least two are damaged, which has contributed to the issues.

The way that the loft (second deck) floor was done is something I’ve not seen before. Maybe it was ok back when, but I think it contributes to the bowing. It certainly is much more pronounced above where the floor joists are attached. Essentially, the 2x4 studs for the walls were notched by approximately 3/4” for a “~1x6” that was then set in there, and the floor joists rest on that and are nailed into the studs. Because of the notch, the studs are weakened, and bow out more above that point. (Sorry, I’m

The roof has ~18ft rafters (including tails), and they are about 16ft from the center to the top plate. The rafters meet and are nailed to a 1x6 at the ridge. It isn’t structural of course. Every other rafter has a tie. They are about halfway.

Id like to try to correct some of the stud bow (which seems to be mostly limited to the center of the building, where the weak rafters, dormer windows, and side windows are. I’d like to jack up the ridge, and pull together the top plates way up high, then add strengthening studs at the bottom.

There is a load bearing stud wall about 1/3 of the way across the building on the first floor only. It may or may not be useful to support jacking the ridge. What I am thinking is to attach 8-10 3000# capacity ratchet straps to ledger boards attached to the top plate and studs of the building. Slowly I would cinch the top plates towards each other, while also jacking the ridge. I think I’d work from the outsides in, though that’s TBD.

After I get it cinched somewhat, I’d want to add some additional structure to better support the second deck, and sister the bowed studs, at least for the first story. The sill plate is actual 3x6, so a 2x6 sister stud could compliment the original 2x4 stud well, if I can tie it all together
I also would want to add sisters for at least the broken rafters.

I’m curious if others have thoughts on this sort of an approach, or if there is a better way. I’ve seen some plans for jigs that are intended to push rafters out, but I think the key is to get the ridge up, walls in, and weight off the roof (one layer asphalt on cedar shakes).

Any thoughts or recommmendations? Some of this is based upon concepts discussed elsewhere, like here:

Bowed walls, sagging ridge - JLC-Online Forums

<b>Moderators: Don Dunkley & Mike Sloggatt</b> <br> Tools, tips, and techniques, for fast and accurate framing.

forums.jlconline.com

I think my concern is if we pull the walls in, and the rafters don’t cause the ridge to go up sufficiently, then the rafter tails could come away from the top plate. I know that’s why one goes slow, but would still love recommendations.

Any insights or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time and reading of this post.

 

[HotRodx10]

You essentially have 2 options - support the ridge or tie the walls together using some type of rafter ties.

If you opt for the rafter ties as the permanent solution, which seems like what you are leaning towards, the simplest way I know of to accomplish this is to attach the ties directly to the rafters. You theoretically can go as high as 1/3 of the way to the ridge, but I would recommend going as low as possible, right on top of the wall, if you can. There are numerous options for the ties - 2x lumber, cables, steel rods, etc.

 

[Nealtw]

What you have is balloon frame which was common before the late 30s.
When the building is not being used they are subject to snow overloading as inside heat usually helped move it along..
Are the corners still connected and reasonably square considering?

 

[JHZR2]

You essentially have 2 options - support the ridge or tie the walls together using some type of rafter ties.

If you opt for the rafter ties as the permanent solution, which seems like what you are leaning towards, the simplest way I know of to accomplish this is to attach the ties directly to the rafters. You theoretically can go as high as 1/3 of the way to the ridge, but I would recommend going as low as possible, right on top of the wall, if you can. There are numerous options for the ties - 2x lumber, cables, steel rods, etc.

There are ties. I don’t recall off the top of my head but I think they’re either 8 or 16ft long. They are installed every other rafter. Because they’re kind of half way I didn’t know if they were rafter or collar ties. They’re decently sized, like 2x6, and fairly long. I guess just not enough, as obviously the roof is sagging and the walls are bowing. Perhaps the only thing holding the building together are those ties!

I’m not opposed to installing one per rafter, vs every other (as it currently stands; woukd I remove them or add the others in addition? Or just on the currently un-tied rafter pairs?), especially since the rafters are already undersized and long. But that’s why I’m here to get opinions! I’d like to keep them as low as possible but high enough that I don’t knock my head on them when walking. Id like the space to be functional…

cables and steel rods might be interesting currently as I could continuously and slowly turn and tighten them as time passes and the wood maybe moves back…

What you have is balloon frame which was common before the late 30s.
When the building is not being used they are subject to snow overloading as inside heat usually helped move it along..
Are the corners still connected and reasonably square considering?

Interesting point, there was heat in there years ago but it’s long gone, and it’s not a well sealed building… it’s more of a garage or barn. The only option would be electric heat during snow load periods, which would be $$$ for not much effect. Heating 1000sf of uninsukated space would require lots of kW.

As for the corners, yes, everything is connected. One back corner of the foundation has a crack, and that’s one thing my engineer is looking into. But the rest of the foundation seems sound and uncracked, and the gable ends seem fine. In fact, on the side walls, the bow is mainly limited to the center most rafters. Each side wall has two windows. The bowing is primarily between those windows. That maybe is to be expected as there are fewer studs, not even the 1x6 floor joist support, etc…

 

[Nealtw]

There are ties. I don’t recall off the top of my head but I think they’re either 8 or 16ft long. They are installed every other rafter. Because they’re kind of half way I didn’t know if they were rafter or collar ties. They’re decently sized, like 2x6, and fairly long. I guess just not enough, as obviously the roof is sagging and the walls are bowing. Perhaps the only thing holding the building together are those ties!

I’m not opposed to installing one per rafter, vs every other (as it currently stands; woukd I remove them or add the others in addition? Or just on the currently un-tied rafter pairs?), especially since the rafters are already undersized and long. But that’s why I’m here to get opinions! I’d like to keep them as low as possible but high enough that I don’t knock my head on them when walking. Id like the space to be functional…

cables and steel rods might be interesting currently as I could continuously and slowly turn and tighten them as time passes and the wood maybe moves back…



Interesting point, there was heat in there years ago but it’s long gone, and it’s not a well sealed building… it’s more of a garage or barn. The only option would be electric heat during snow load periods, which would be $$$ for not much effect. Heating 1000sf of uninsukated space would require lots of kW.

As for the corners, yes, everything is connected. One back corner of the foundation has a crack, and that’s one thing my engineer is looking into. But the rest of the foundation seems sound and uncracked, and the gable ends seem fine. In fact, on the side walls, the bow is mainly limited to the center most rafters. Each side wall has two windows. The bowing is primarily between those windows. That maybe is to be expected as there are fewer studs, not even the 1x6 floor joist support, etc…

here is the way I would approach it
I like the idea of jacking up the center but for the jack , less is more. You will have better feel with 10 ton jacks while 20 ton jacks will just break things. You will be looking for 1/8th to 1/4 inch at a time it it may take weeks,
The bottom plates are not likely bolted down, you can look at seismic rotrofit for that or at the very least tie them together at the bottom.
I drew this up with measurement that you can discuss or figure where they would be needed.
Chains are the best with turn buckles, by counting turns you can do a managed pull like 1/8th to a 1/4 at a time.
We can discuss this before getting into what it needs for repairs to keep it in place.
Collar ties are in the upper 1/3 and I would install new and then remove those as soon as you have the jacks in place.

 

[Nealtw]

Can you post picture, inside upstairs down stairs anything interesting.

 

[HotRodx10]

Because they’re kind of half way I didn’t know if they were rafter or collar ties.

That's the problem; what you have are neither rafter ties nor collar ties, and they don't act effectively as either one. Rafter ties need to be in the bottom third to be effective. As I said, the lower the better.

 

[Nealtw]

That's the problem; what you have are neither rafter ties nor collar ties, and they don't act effectively as either one. Rafter ties need to be in the bottom third to be effective. As I said, the lower the better.

In that building the floor was the rafter tie.

 

[HotRodx10]

In that building the floor was the rafter tie.

In the OP's case, it doesn't seem to have worked as intended. I'm not following the posts well enough to ascertain why. are the floor joist connections inadequate, or is the floor too far below the rafters and the studs are bending, or something else?

 

[JHZR2]

In that building the floor was the rafter tie.
View attachment 672595 View attachment 672596

This looks a lot like how my building was set up. I guess the floor is like the rafter tie…. But what I can observe is that the bowing out is much more pronounced above that floor. The notching weakened the 2x4 substantially. Only one is cracked, and the walls are moving outwards below the loft floor…. It it’s a worse bow above it.

 

[JHZR2]

In the OP's case, it doesn't seem to have worked as intended. I'm not following the posts well enough to ascertain why. are the floor joist connections inadequate, or is the floor too far below the rafters and the studs are bending, or something else?

it is exactly like the black and white photo of the balloon frame just above. Exactly like that. There are two gable ends, and then the studs just go a few feet above the floor, then the roof is pitched so there’s lots of space on the second floor.

That's the problem; what you have are neither rafter ties nor collar ties, and they don't act effectively as either one. Rafter ties need to be in the bottom third to be effective. As I said, the lower the better.

Right. Ive got neither, and I have a weakened structure because of the windows on the sides of the building (IMO).

Can you post picture, inside upstairs down stairs anything interesting.

These are the best that I can find.

Here are the ties:

This is 2/3 of the downstairs. That wall is the worst bow, in the center between the windows.

Here’s the roof. Cedar with asphalt on top. That doesn’t help with weight. Considering going metal on the old purlins.

here’s an example of a rafter with some cracking at a knot. One rafter has noticeable warping, but most don’t. The ridge sag is noticeable from outside. Notice also that this is a dormer. There are rafters down the center of the dormers but the bow is worst near them because they’re centered on each side.

 

[JHZR2]

here is the way I would approach it
I like the idea of jacking up the center but for the jack , less is more. You will have better feel with 10 ton jacks while 20 ton jacks will just break things. You will be looking for 1/8th to 1/4 inch at a time it it may take weeks,
The bottom plates are not likely bolted down, you can look at seismic rotrofit for that or at the very least tie them together at the bottom.
I drew this up with measurement that you can discuss or figure where they would be needed.
Chains are the best with turn buckles, by counting turns you can do a managed pull like 1/8th to a 1/4 at a time.
We can discuss this before getting into what it needs for repairs to keep it in place.
Collar ties are in the upper 1/3 and I would install new and then remove those as soon as you have the jacks in place.
View attachment 672593

that’s a great representation!

so you’re saying to install colllar ties now?

I guess my concern is, if I bring both sides inward, slowly, how am I sure that I’m pulling the rafter too? Couldn’t the studs come in and the rafters stay wide?

 

[Nealtw]

In the OP's case, it doesn't seem to have worked as intended. I'm not following the posts well enough to ascertain why. are the floor joist connections inadequate, or is the floor too far below the rafters and the studs are bending, or something else?

Studs have a big curve, when old balloons are let go this is what happens.

 

[Nealtw]

that’s a great representation!

so you’re saying Toni stall colllar ties now?

I guess my concern is, if I bring both sides inward, slowly, how am I sure that I’m pulling the rafter too? Couldn’t the studs come in and the rafters stay wide?

Yes I was just liking at the rafters might want something more there but you will be doing some coordinating with the lift at the top of the rafters,
It will take weeks to slowly bring the studs back .
I think it is well worth saving but it will take some time.
It would be nice if we could wet the studs up to about 30% but I don't know how you would do that.
When you get a chance I would like to see the floor between the studs upstairs.
And a few from below.

 

[JHZR2]

Yes I was just liking at the rafters might want something more there but you will be doing some coordinating with the lift at the top of the rafters,
It will take weeks to slowly bring the studs back .
I think it is well worth saving but it will take some time.
It would be nice if we could wet the studs up to about 30% but I don't know how you would do that.
When you get a chance I would like to see the floor between the studs upstairs.
And a few from below.

I do have time. I can set them, if with nothing else than with a handheld sprayer. The floor is simply tongue and groove wood. Single layer on floor joists. I’ll grab pics in a bit. Thanks!!

 

[AllanJ]

I would say that in order to do it right you should go with turnbuckle cables no more than six feet apart, right at the tops of the wall studs. Sacrifice some convenience and headroom now to get a longer lasting building in the long run. Tighten them little by little so that in a few months you get the building reshaped somewhat correctly (probably won't get it perfect).

You might need a few extra turnbuckle cables to put here and there to pull any individual stubborn rafters and studs in line with the rest of the building.

Next add "collar ties" no more than 1/3 of the way up the rafters Bolt them to the rafters so the roof cannot sag again and the walls cannot bow out again. Remove the turnbuckle cables.

 

[JHZR2]

When you get a chance I would like to see the floor between the studs upstairs.
And a few from below.

Here is the upstairs floor. Single layer of wood perpendicular to the floor joists.

Looks like 3/4” material

Here is how the floor and studs are on the second deck. They more or less go stud to stud, but you can obviously see down since nothing is finished.

Looking up from below:

 

[JHZR2]

I would say that in order to do it right you should go with turnbuckle cables no more than six feet apart, right at the tops of the wall studs. Sacrifice some convenience and headroom now to get a longer lasting building in the long run. Tighten them little by little so that in a few months you get the building reshaped somewhat correctly (probably won't get it perfect).

You might need a few extra turnbuckle cables to put here and there to pull any individual stubborn rafters and studs in line with the rest of the building.

Next add "collar ties" no more than 1/3 of the way up the rafters Bolt them to the rafters so the roof cannot sag again and the walls cannot bow out again. Remove the turnbuckle cables.

So, two questions…

1) I was able to get a large number of heavy duty 3000# ratchet straps. Can I do the job with ratchet straps versus turnbuckle cables?

2) I’ve seen recommendations to pull via a 4x4 from the outside. This makes sense, the only issue being that I’d have to remove siding. If instead I put a ledger board lag screwed into all the studs, (spax lag bolts and long screws) with a lot of straps, would this be acceptable? I know that screw pull-out is a consideration, but it is an easier Installation. Less intrusive if I’m going to be pulling for the next few months.

The other thing to consider here is that I’m in the NE/mid Atlantic. We could have a mild winter or a high snow winter. The high snow winter concerns me with roof integrity. I guess it has lasted this long…. I’m guessing that this bowing took years and wasn’t from a one or two time heavy snow. Thoughts???

Thanks!

 

[JHZR2]

I also went up to look at the rafter ties. They are about 1/3 of the way up. They’re in a good spot for headroom, not necessarily max holding power, but if I was to put them permanently any lower the upper floor would be unusable. In the short term to sure everything up I’m not as concerned. Long term more so as I’d like to be able to use the upstairs.

The rafter ties have about 72” from the top plate to the bottom of the tie. And about 9” from the top of the 2x6 tie to the ridge board.

Everything is 2x6 and the ties are both nailed and carriage bolted in. The rafters are 2’ oc.

In terms of the rafter tie arrangement, it’s semi-irregular.

From the front to rear it is:
Front Gable end
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with chimney passing through
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter (left side is two 1x6)
Rafter at dormers
Rafter (left side is two 1x6)
Rafter (left side bow down, not touching roof)
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter
Rear gable end

For what it’s worth.

There’s a lot going on in the middle of the building. The chimney is interrupting a rafter. There are at least two incorrect rafters and one warped one, and the dormers are there.

 

[Nealtw]

I also went up to look at the rafter ties. They are about 1/3 of the way up. They’re in a good spot for headroom, not necessarily max holding power, but if I was to put them permanently any lower the upper floor would be unusable. In the short term to sure everything up I’m not as concerned. Long term more so as I’d like to be able to use the upstairs.

The rafter ties have about 72” from the top plate to the bottom of the tie. And about 9” from the top of the 2x6 tie to the ridge board.





Everything is 2x6 and the ties are both nailed and carriage bolted in. The rafters are 2’ oc.






In terms of the rafter tie arrangement, it’s semi-irregular.

From the front to rear it is:
Front Gable end
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with chimney passing through
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter (left side is two 1x6)
Rafter at dormers
Rafter (left side is two 1x6)
Rafter (left side bow down, not touching roof)
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter with tie
Rafter
Rafter
Rear gable end

For what it’s worth.

There’s a lot going on in the middle of the building. The chimney is interrupting a rafter. There are at least two incorrect rafters and one warped one, and the dormers are there.

If the rafter ties are 1/3 up they are in the correct spot. More can be added after it is back in place.
It will be easy enough to add 2x6 full height studs and a new ribbon joist.
The studs at the floor seem to be in the right place and the bend starts below the floor where it is likely leaning in.
Ratchet straps may or may not be strong enough, they are often like a come a long and each click is more than you want to move it at one time.
When you have put things in tension, anything that breaks can cause shock loading more things break.