[Sgt Hulka]

Greetings,

I installed a Reliance manual transfer switch kit model number 31406CRK a number of years ago shortly after the huge outage in 2002 we had in N.E. U.S. I also have a Dayton 3W737C generator which I recently discovered is bonded which I never even knew until reading recently about bonded & neutral floating generators which made me wonder what I have since installing the transfer switch. So I went back over the transfer switch install I did many years ago. I realize I may need to unbond the neutral on the generator so I'm working on that. But I'm wondering if the transfer switch was wired correctly, I watched the video. Only issue I had during the install was that there were no open Neutral/Ground spots in the Main panel. I have a subfeed panel next to the main panel and there were open Neutral & Ground spots to wire the transfer switch green & white wires into which brings me to my question can the white neutral wire & green ground from the transfer switch wires be wired into the sub panel buses? Or should I find a way to change this & put them into the main panel on the neutral/ground bus bars. I have attached some images for input thank You

 

[SW Dweller]

Unless I am missing something I do not see how the transfer switch is doing anything.
The blue conduit has no phase wire in it.

 

[seharper]

can the white neutral wire & green ground from the transfer switch wires be wired into the sub panel buses? Or should I find a way to change this & put them into the main panel on the neutral/ground bus bars. I have attached some images for input thank You

Nope, sorry. Never take hot from one place and neutral from another. They have to stay together or crazy happens. Ground is more flexible because it never carries current except when breakers are about to trip lol.


You need to free up space on your neutral bar in your main panel (where ground is allowed as a guest on the neutral bar).

Option 1, read the panel labeling and see where it says 2 or 3 grounds are allowed to share 1 spot on the neutral bar. Pack your grounds to the max allowed. That should free up some neutral spots. All neutrals must be alone, 1 per spot, no sharing with anything else.

Option 2, read the panel labeling for the recommended part number for accessory ground bars. Go buy the biggest ground bar offered (under $10) and move as many grounds as possible there. Note panels have several sites pre-drilled to mount ground bars. So if wire length requires, feel free to use 2-3 bars.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Thank you se Harper. I was leaning towards your suggestions & recommendations but was looking for some confirmation that this would be the correct thing to do. I will take a closer look at both bus bars in the main panel and see where I can consolidate the bare copper EGC's. I do see a number of double tapped white neutrals on both sides in the main panel bus bars which I have read is no longer allowed. So I will see what can be done with what I have or will opt to possibly add an additional bonded bus bar to the main panel and transfer some of the bare copper EGC's to the new bus bar to free up spots for white neutrals in their own holes. I attached my main panel label I don't see how many bare coppers are allowed into one hole unless I'm missing it.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Or option 3 would be to get a quote from a Electrician to upgrade my main panel to a 200 Amp service main panel and have everything cleaned up and get rid of the sub panel all together.

 

[seharper]

Or....... have the electrician consolidate the transfer switch and subpanel, into a "critical loads subpanel" with a generator interlock. I wouldn't see a cost savings there since you already have the xfer switch, but it would support more circuits and give you lots of extra breaker spaces overall (presuming you go with a nice big critical loads sub, and why not, spaces are cheap). It would also properly support MWBCs, GFCI and AFCI circuits on the generator.

I myself would go 200A/30-space, so if you ever do a heavy-up to 200A you can just make the sub the main, and flip the old main to be a sub. Cheap and easy.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Ok now your blowing my mind. Thank You for your input. Happy new year!

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Any thoughts on my main panel label in regards to the number of bare copper grounds that can be installed per hole on bus bars?

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Hi, Does anyone see a reason to not if I decided to remove my reliance 6 circuit transfer switch and place a 30 amp double breaker opposite my main feed 100 amp breaker to back feed my main panel using my 5K watt portable generator? I would place a interlock between both breakers to prevent grid backfeed.

 

[seharper]

I think that's a great plan, with a couple of provisos.

#1 stop and do a test-fit of a breaker in the top right location. Some manufacturers lock out breakers from being installed there.

If that's a problem, look into whether you can get an interlock to operate on a breaker immediately under the current main. Some panels intend for the generator interlock to go there.

Try to disassemble the transfer switch carefully and respectfully so it is complete. They go on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace for perfectly good money.


Breaker problems, though.

This appears to be a Challenger or Bryant panel. All the Challenger and Siemens breakers must be changed to BR type. The Siemens QP==MP type breakers are not listed for this panel (unless the panel labeling calls out MP type, which I super doubt). The Challenger breakers are known fire-starters as they will not trip when they're supposed to. Sorry if someone wasted money on the Siemens breakers but those can be re-sold on Craigslist etc.

Challenger got caught cheating their UL testing. Nothing wrong with the bus design. BRyant picked up the license to it at the bankruptcy sale, and used it to develop their BR line which became Eaton. That's why BR breakers are the silver bullet for this panel (at $5-6 a pop, not bad)... and indeed BR breakers are cross-listed Type C.

By the way, see how the main breaker bus stab is notched? Any other stabs notched like that can accept BRD or BD tandem breakers which are cross-listed type A for this panel. Your panel labeling would also show Type A as approved.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Thanks for your observations and advice it's a challenger box. I'm not sure how it passed any kind of inspection with the wrong breakers installed? There was a house fire many years ago but it wasn't due to any circuit breaker failures or at least that is what was said. The panel label is posted here is close up of recommended breakers.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Can you please post a link to the brand & type of breakers this challenger panel should be using.

 

[seharper]

I'm not sure how it passed any kind of inspection with the wrong breakers installed?

Happens all the time. Inspection is spot-checking, not certification. If they miss something, the next inspector can find it and red-flag it and you have no defense unless you have a written waiver.

"Use Challenger circuit breakers type A, C, etc." That's the language we're after. MP is not listed.
BR breakers are cross-listed Type A (tandem/quad) or Type C (full size).

This is required, not recommended, due to NEC 110.3(B) "follow instructions and labeling".

Eaton BR 20 Amp Single Pole Circuit Breaker BR120 - The Home Depot

The Eaton Cutler-Hammer 20 Amp 1 in. Single-Pole Type BR Replacement Circuit Breaker is designed to protect house wires from overheating or causing a short-circuit. Single pole breaker applications include

www.homedepot.com

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-Type-BR-15-Amp-1-Pole-Standard-Trip-Circuit-Breaker/1114089

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/circuit-protection-power-distribution/circuit-breakers/eaton-reg-2-pole-type-br-standard-circuit-breaker/br250/p-1444429556395-c-1489583170892.htm

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.BR240.html

Note all these breakers have a cross-listing Type BR and Type C. They are direct fit for Challenger Type C. Eaton BR line is the most popular line of breakers in America. You can even use high-tech units like Eaton Remote Control breakers and the emerging BR / C Smart Breakers.

You can also use tandems and Quads from Eaton BR line, which are cross-listed Type A.

Eaton BD 2-15 Amp Single Pole Tandem CTL Circuit Breaker BD1515 - The Home Depot

Circuit breakers protect the wires in your home from overheating (referred to as an overload) and fault currents (referred to as short circuits). The Eaton Cutler-Hammer 15/15 Amp 1 in. Duplex Type BD

www.homedepot.com

Technically only the Siemens breakers have to go, the Challenger can stay if your insurer is OK with it. However I would not want to have that conversation with the insurer, as they lack the sense of subtlety to realize the bus and enclosure are fine. They are likely to panic and demand full panel replacement. (two other types, Zinsco and FPE, have defective buses also, unfortunate for those owners.)

Your main breaker is cross-listed Type BR, which indicates it is BRyant/Eaton stock which is known good. That's a relief.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Thanks so much! Looks like I've got some work to do here with the breakers and interlock install.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Hi Again,

I'm definitely going to replace all existing breakers with Eaton BR. Question I have now is on using the Tandem breakers on this panel. Looking at my panel diagram on the label it doesn't technically allow for Tandem breakers am I correct? I'm not really adding any new house hold circuits just trying make room to accommodate for a 30 amp double breaker to allow for generator back feed with interlock. There is white label under the bus that says UL CTL. The BD/BA tandem breakers are type A, so does this make it ok to use tandems in the panel regardless of what the label shows? Not sure if I'm confusing myself or overthinking this to much. Thank you in advance.

 

[rogerwh]

Greetings,

I installed a Reliance manual transfer switch kit model number 31406CRK a number of years ago shortly after the huge outage in 2002 we had in N.E. U.S. I also have a Dayton 3W737C generator which I recently discovered is bonded which I never even knew until reading recently about bonded & neutral floating generators which made me wonder what I have since installing the transfer switch. So I went back over the transfer switch install I did many years ago. I realize I may need to unbond the neutral on the generator so I'm working on that. But I'm wondering if the transfer switch was wired correctly, I watched the video. Only issue I had during the install was that there were no open Neutral/Ground spots in the Main panel. I have a subfeed panel next to the main panel and there were open Neutral & Ground spots to wire the transfer switch green & white wires into which brings me to my question can the white neutral wire & green ground from the transfer switch wires be wired into the sub panel buses? Or should I find a way to change this & put them into the main panel on the neutral/ground bus bars. I have attached some images for input thank You View attachment 725341
View attachment 725340
View attachment 725339

Your setup is obviously working, I believe you are overthinking this. The generator is powering your selected circuits, right? If you have serious questions, you need an, on site, electrician to check out your installation. Face it, if you take advice from the site, you will still have questions in your mind, if the setup is correct. This is the manual you should be double checking, seeing your main, already has the ground and neutral connected.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1XCmgUfULS.pdf

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Your setup is obviously working, I believe you are overthinking this. The generator is powering your selected circuits, right? If you have serious questions, you need an, on site, electrician to check out your installation. Face it, if you take advice from the site, you will still have questions in your mind, if the setup is correct. This is the manual you should be double checking, seeing your main, already has the ground and neutral connected.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1XCmgUfULS.pdf

Oh jeez thanks dude.....you think I need the installation manual which I already have and I could have found myself online if I really needed it.... Yes it worked after I installed it. But I'm considering converting to a interlock type set up in my main panel and the other gentlemen has provided me with some good ideas as well as pointing out some safety issues with old challenger breakers and the use of alien breakers that do not belong in my panel that I was totally unaware of. So if you do not have anything constructive to add in regards to the last few posts in regards to tandem breakers being used in this panel then no need for you to reply.

 

[rogerwh]

I thought it was very constructive. If it’s working, WHY CHANGE IT. You could save money.

 

[seharper]

I'm definitely going to replace all existing breakers with Eaton BR. Question I have now is on using the Tandem breakers on this panel. Looking at my panel diagram on the label it doesn't technically allow for Tandem breakers am I correct?

I thought the label authorized Type A breakers. Type A is Challenger's designation for tandem.

However (and this is the same with BRyant/Eaton BR), pop a breaker off and look at the stab. Forked stab = tandems definitely allowed. Non-forked stab = it's complicated. Ask.

I'm not really adding any new house hold circuits just trying make room to accommodate for a 30 amp double breaker to allow for generator back feed with interlock. There is white label under the bus that says UL CTL. The BD/BA tandem breakers are type A, so does this make it ok to use tandems in the panel regardless of what the label shows?

Since the label seems to list type A specifically, I say you're all set.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

Yes, I thought so also until I did some further reading & research. According to the panel wiring diagram & label on the panel door type A or duplex are not allowed it says type C breaker only. I did complete swapping all the Challenger type C breakers and Siemens breakers out last night and put in the Eaton BR breakers so that's done Thanks again for pointing that out! The bus bar & stabs all look ok no signs of scoring,overheat or melting whatsoever that I could see. All the bus bar stabs are solid with no notches at all. They make Eaton BR duplex/twin breakers that would fit but I'm reluctant to use them since it's not really correct for this particular panel per the label wiring diagram. I might try & see about transferring 2 breakers out of the main panel and put them into the sub panel since there are 2 open spaces in there. I'm thinking the microwave breaker & the basement lighting breaker can go in there. That would free up 2 spaces in the main panel for the 30 amp interlock breaker to be installed into the main panel.