[WayOverMyHead]

Newbie here - faced with the panel below (GE Load Center Model TL 1615RH). Central TX tract home built in mid-1980s - all electric and appears to have 150A service. This panel feeds another sub-panel inside the garage where 120V circuits are controlled. 2-pole/60A breaker for 240V water heater won't stay closed - NOT TRIPPING, just worn and needs to be replaced - current to water heater is intermittent. Water heater elements and thermostats check out OK.

Question: there does not seem to be a main breaker - so how do I shut off power to this main panel so that I can swap out the bad breaker? My hunch is that I am gong to have to call an electrician to have this done - am I right?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Wow, this is a rare case of a no-main-breaker panel. You are certainly correct. I can't recall a time when this would have been compliant.

I was expecting a split-buss panel, where you have up to six "mains" with one controlling the bottom half of the panel, but that is not the case.

 

[rjniles]

You are not being clear is the WH breaker in the outside panel or the inside panel? A WH breaker should be 30 amp. If it says 30 on each handle that does not mean 60, it is a 30 amp 2 pole.
If it is in the outside panel the meter must be removed by the POCO to kill power to the panel. Most electricians would change it hot.

 

[rjniles]

BTW, your outside panel is a code violation, you are only allowed a maximum of 6 breaker handles without a main breaker. You have 7.

 

[joecaption]

Why would that stop you from changing that breaker?
Breakers are replaced all the time without shutting off the main.
Just do not touch the buss or the main feed wires.
Just shut off the breaker, disconnect the wires and pull them out so they do not touch anything, change the breaker and reinstall the wires.

 

[WayOverMyHead]

Pete:

Thanks very much for the "speedy" reply :smile: Very little about these homes built during that period (or even later) meets any code (no treated sills, no frame ties or trusses, direct venting into the attic, no electrical or plumbing shutoffs, etc.). This is the fastest growing county in the U.S. currently and the county does not have building inspectors.

 

[Barjack]

This panel should have a main breaker.

If there are 6 or less breakers or switches, then a main is not needed. This does not appear to be the case.

It almost looks like this is a 3 phase panel with "A" phase removed, and the buses reconfigured for single phase.

The only ways to deenergize the panel would be to cut the service drop or pull the meter. I do not recommend you do that, from a liability and safety standpoint.

You probably need an electrician.

 

[Speedy Petey]

This is the fastest growing county in the U.S. currently and the county does not have building inspectors.

I do not get how something like this is possible. Especially in today's litigious society.

 

[WayOverMyHead]

Speedy:

I don't want to start a flame-war here, but ...

You live in a blue state :smile: In red states, the role of "the "gummint" is to stay out of the way of "bidness" and regulations that burden "bidness" in any way are suspect. You're right, of course: ordinarily, litigation provides an effective limit on how much a "bidness" can get away with in giving consumers a defective product - but not if the State does not allow a cause of action for the defect or doesn't characterize a national code violation as a defect.

Simply put, if homebuyers can't sue (because there is no code that has been violated) what incentive is there for any builder not to cut corners? Southerners have traditionally accepted this as a fact of their heritage and Texans, in particular - after all, an $80/square foot home is fine, right? As consumers, we all want cheap square footage - at least that's what the builders will tell you.

 

[WayOverMyHead]

Thanks to all who have commented - I do appreciate the time and the sharing of your collective expertise - this is a great community.

barjack: Thanks, you're right - I do need an electrician to handle this one.

rjniles: You're absolutely correct on all counts and I did misspeak on the breaker rating. It is an outside breaker - all of the 240V breakers are in the outside panel. There should absolutely be a main.

joecaption: Yep - I'm sure that's the way an electrician will probably handle it - but I'm 61 and am quite eagerly looking forward to being 62 someday :smile:

 

[jhil]

Hard to believe, but many rural areas of Texas have no inspections of any kind except for septic systems. Most incorporated areas have building regulations and inspections. The rural electric co-ops, in areas where I work, bring power to their meter and then it's your baby. Those of us that carry state electrical licences and insurance, wire to state code (currently 2014 NEC) regardless if inspected or not, but unfortunately some do not. Reputable builders will also follow building codes regardless of location, but not all people who build fall into the category of what you would call "reputable".

 

[WayOverMyHead]

jhil: Not just in rural counties. Hays County (just south of Austin) regularly allows development where the densities are 6-8 units per acre. This is "urban" by any definition. Still no inspections - no county building department, no plan review. New construction using nailed lap siding as "sheathing" - single pane windows and exposed slabs where the summer temps rise to triple digits and winter temps in the 20-30s. No prohibition against building in floodplains, no surface water management of any type, etc. results in flooding that makes national news now. ... but you do get fake wood floors and granite countertops :wink2:

 

[Speedy Petey]

jhil: Not just in rural counties. Hays County (just south of Austin) regularly allows development where the densities are 6-8 units per acre. This is "urban" by any definition. .....

Ummm, hardly. That is quintessential "suburban".
Urban would be inner city Houston, or Brooklyn or The Bronx.

.......Still no inspections - no county building department, no plan review. New construction using nailed lap siding as "sheathing" - single pane windows and exposed slabs where the summer temps rise to triple digits and winter temps in the 20-30s. No prohibition against building in floodplains, no surface water management of any type, etc. results in flooding that makes national news now. ... but you do get fake wood floors and granite countertops :wink2:

My point exactly. How can they justify allowing any old jack of all trades to come in and hack together a home for some unsuspecting young family. Not everyone is building savvy, not even in TX.

 

[Jim Port]

So the government looks the other way to attract business and screws the taxpayers by allowing a substandard product to live in. Don't worry about the neighbors either when the place goes up in flames or the lives of the firefighters trying to stop a conflagration.

Oh yeah, and the heck with the licensed contractors that try and follow the codes.

 

[Know A Little]

OR

Maybe there were only 6 mains at the time of the final inspection with the slim lines added at a later date?

 

[rjniles]

OR

Maybe there were only 6 mains at the time of the final inspection with the slim lines added at a later date?

That is why I have always wondered about using the 6 throw rule in a panel that can accept additional breakers that will violate the rule.

 

[rjniles]

The panel could be made compliant by adding a 150 amp breaker with a hold down kit and back feeding the panel.

 

[Barjack]

I still say this was a 3 phase panel. Maybe it used to be one of the backfed ones that were used with 3 phase air conditioners.


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[rjniles]

I still say this was a 3 phase panel. Maybe it used to be one of the backfed ones that were used with 3 phase air conditioners.


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I don't see it. If it were a 3 phase panel every third slot would be dead. And there are only 2 terminals on the top of the panel.

 

[Barjack]

I don't see it. If it were a 3 phase panel every third slot would be dead. And there are only 2 terminals on the top of the panel.

I know but I think they reconfigured the bus bars. I've seen it done before. If you look there is either a 1/4" or 5/16" screw holding the bus bars together.


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