New Roof, Leaks, No Flashing....HELP!
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Sorry,,I had to break that up a bit.
Hello everyone and please bare with me, this is my 1st post. Very LONG story short we just had a new roof put on our home in Florida end of June 2012 (house built in 1977) old roof taken off (bought house in 91' never replaced roof sense we've been in it) per the contract NEW everything was to be installed, flashing, vents, trim, shingles, rotten wood replaced, etc.
Had a contract written up by the roofer, looked into him and his work which he was licensed and insured, had a permit pulled so the city would come out and inspect throughout the job...thought we did it all right. Two weeks after the new roof was put on we had some heavy rains and our new roof leaked down our fireplace wall and in the corner of our living room where the fireplace wall and other corner of wall meet.
It was like a little stream going down the wall. Called the contractor/roofer right away and he came out the next day...put some "black stuff" all around our chimney where the roof and chimney meet. Rained later in the week not as bad but still leaked, called him back and he then states the chimney needs to be caulked and joints cause water is getting in that way. Of course we paid $100 + for a guy to come out and do that...fast forward when hurricane Sandy came through...Major wind and hard rains... water POURED down our living room wall where the corner of the wall same spot along with water coming down in spots on our fireplace wall.
Very open with my roofer and stated that I am sick cause we spent ALOT of $$$$ money for new roof, did it all "right" and then found out AFTER it is all done.... THERE IS NO FLASHING AROUND THE CHIMNEY!!! BUT was later informed by my roofer/contractor that he was told by his ROOFING CREW that there was no flashing around the chimney when pulling they pulled off the OLD ROOF (which old roof back in the day like 10 yrs ago did leak in that area...had a guy come out and he did some kinda of "patch/black sticky stuff, etc" and it never leaked again.)
And no flashing was put in...BUT I looked at my permit and under the box labeled "flashing" it's signed off on as "inspected" BUT we DO NOT HAVING FLASHING around our chimney and I guess never did. I'm now being told that was not part of the original contract (to add flashing to the chimney) and to have the stone removed on our chimney and to have flashing added it can be done for $500 plus the cost to have a mason come out and re-do the stones/rocks to put back on the chimney.
I'm in shock, when the roofer came out to give an est. on the job and looked over our roof and then we signed the contract to have work done (by the way he gave me a warranty on work and roof for 7 years) HOWEVER, he states the flashing is not part of the warranty cause he was not aware till they got into the job that there was no flashing orig on the chimney ( We had NO CLUE TOO, we are not roofers)??? So, my question is this? As a roofer and as a city official who came out and "inspected" and then being told "you never had flashing around your chimney and we are not responsible for adding flashing" and now I have a $7,000+ new roof that leaks WORSE than ever...do I have any leg to stand on or am I screwed???
PS: My husband went up in the attic with the roof contractor and when they both were in the attic and one of his workers was on the roof my husband pointed out a pc. of rotten wood that they BOTH noticed when someone was walking on the roof with weight and my husband stated "Hey that pc of wood is rotten and did not get replaced!" It was also "brushed under the rug" as being said...Oh, that's nothing to worry about
Hello everyone and please bare with me, this is my 1st post. Very LONG story short we just had a new roof put on our home in Florida end of June 2012 (house built in 1977) old roof taken off (bought house in 91' never replaced roof sense we've been in it) per the contract NEW everything was to be installed, flashing, vents, trim, shingles, rotten wood replaced, etc.
Had a contract written up by the roofer, looked into him and his work which he was licensed and insured, had a permit pulled so the city would come out and inspect throughout the job...thought we did it all right. Two weeks after the new roof was put on we had some heavy rains and our new roof leaked down our fireplace wall and in the corner of our living room where the fireplace wall and other corner of wall meet.
It was like a little stream going down the wall. Called the contractor/roofer right away and he came out the next day...put some "black stuff" all around our chimney where the roof and chimney meet. Rained later in the week not as bad but still leaked, called him back and he then states the chimney needs to be caulked and joints cause water is getting in that way. Of course we paid $100 + for a guy to come out and do that...fast forward when hurricane Sandy came through...Major wind and hard rains... water POURED down our living room wall where the corner of the wall same spot along with water coming down in spots on our fireplace wall.
Very open with my roofer and stated that I am sick cause we spent ALOT of $$$$ money for new roof, did it all "right" and then found out AFTER it is all done.... THERE IS NO FLASHING AROUND THE CHIMNEY!!! BUT was later informed by my roofer/contractor that he was told by his ROOFING CREW that there was no flashing around the chimney when pulling they pulled off the OLD ROOF (which old roof back in the day like 10 yrs ago did leak in that area...had a guy come out and he did some kinda of "patch/black sticky stuff, etc" and it never leaked again.)
And no flashing was put in...BUT I looked at my permit and under the box labeled "flashing" it's signed off on as "inspected" BUT we DO NOT HAVING FLASHING around our chimney and I guess never did. I'm now being told that was not part of the original contract (to add flashing to the chimney) and to have the stone removed on our chimney and to have flashing added it can be done for $500 plus the cost to have a mason come out and re-do the stones/rocks to put back on the chimney.
I'm in shock, when the roofer came out to give an est. on the job and looked over our roof and then we signed the contract to have work done (by the way he gave me a warranty on work and roof for 7 years) HOWEVER, he states the flashing is not part of the warranty cause he was not aware till they got into the job that there was no flashing orig on the chimney ( We had NO CLUE TOO, we are not roofers)??? So, my question is this? As a roofer and as a city official who came out and "inspected" and then being told "you never had flashing around your chimney and we are not responsible for adding flashing" and now I have a $7,000+ new roof that leaks WORSE than ever...do I have any leg to stand on or am I screwed???
PS: My husband went up in the attic with the roof contractor and when they both were in the attic and one of his workers was on the roof my husband pointed out a pc. of rotten wood that they BOTH noticed when someone was walking on the roof with weight and my husband stated "Hey that pc of wood is rotten and did not get replaced!" It was also "brushed under the rug" as being said...Oh, that's nothing to worry about
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It was your contractors responsibility to determine what components you have on your roof and what is missing.Its also his responsibility to inform you of these findings and address them and come up with a workable solution.
Sounds to me like the "Crew" is taking the fall.Someone other than the crew should have been aware of what is there and what is not there on your roof and components.
How do these contractors get jobs without actually inspecting the roofs they are giving estimates on ? How are they able to sign contracts without knowing all aspects of the roofs they are preparing to do.Sheeesh.
Sounds to me like the "Crew" is taking the fall.Someone other than the crew should have been aware of what is there and what is not there on your roof and components.
How do these contractors get jobs without actually inspecting the roofs they are giving estimates on ? How are they able to sign contracts without knowing all aspects of the roofs they are preparing to do.Sheeesh.
First thank you for breaking up my post so it's eaiser to read...told you it was my 1st post...LOL!Someone other than the crew should have been aware of what is there and what is not there on your roof and components.
How do these contractors get jobs without actually inspecting the roofs they are giving estimates on ? How are they able to sign contracts without knowing all aspects of the roofs they are preparing to do.Sheeesh.
I agree with you and the sad thing is this, the contractor came out "2" times and looked at my roof and got up on the roof both times. I just got off the phone with him and asked "WHY did the crew not bring it to your attention that there was no flashing around the chimney?" I was then told that in all the roofing jobs they have ever done they never had run into a roof job where flashing was not already there. And that his crew must have figured that it was fine without it???
Now, I'm no roofer and don't know much when it comes to this but if the house was built in 1977 and lets say at that time you did not have to have flashing but all houses you've done from the time you are in business they all have had flashing....would that make you call your boss and say something?
I was told that if it would have been addressed at the time (by his crew)then he would of offered the solution and that would of been $500 to add the flashing. But if I look at the contract there is no mention of chimney flashing so he is offering to do it now for $500. Is that normal?
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IMO the difference between a good contractor and a not so good contractor is
knowing all the components associated with the service you provide.Since majority of components of a roof system has the word "Flashing"associated with it that is a gimme so to speak,,so not checking the Counter Flashing is irresponsible and IMO he is lying to you.
I can kinda understand from your contractors view about not ever seeing a chimney without flashing,,,that is if he has been in business for a VERY SHORT PERIOD.Just when you think you have seen everything something new pops up.BUT I have seen sooooooo many chimneys with no flashing,walls with no flashing and lots of other goofy things that these are the things I check right from the start.
You ask any roofer/contractor what they look for when they look at a chimney and somewhere within the first 4 replies is going to be flashing,,,if not the first.
The crew is not to blame even though I would have a hard time keeping a crew that would not notice and respond to one of the most entry level fundamentals of roofing that flashing is.
The proper protocol for running jnto this problem during project commencement is to STOP !!!
1.Call the contractor.
2.Contractor calls and meets homeowner.
3.Homeowner makes a decision.
4.Project continues.,,It should have never made it to that point but if it had that's the way it should have played out.
The customer is relying on the contractor to know what needs to be replaced or added.These details should be in writing kn their contract.The homeowner should not have to wonder if they have all the components to complete a functioning roof system once its complete.
They should not have to play games such as "The Blame Game" or "Lets have a stupid homeowner for $500 Alex".
On this workmanship warranty does it show an exclusion for the chimney flashing eliminating it from the warranty ?
knowing all the components associated with the service you provide.Since majority of components of a roof system has the word "Flashing"associated with it that is a gimme so to speak,,so not checking the Counter Flashing is irresponsible and IMO he is lying to you.
I can kinda understand from your contractors view about not ever seeing a chimney without flashing,,,that is if he has been in business for a VERY SHORT PERIOD.Just when you think you have seen everything something new pops up.BUT I have seen sooooooo many chimneys with no flashing,walls with no flashing and lots of other goofy things that these are the things I check right from the start.
You ask any roofer/contractor what they look for when they look at a chimney and somewhere within the first 4 replies is going to be flashing,,,if not the first.
The crew is not to blame even though I would have a hard time keeping a crew that would not notice and respond to one of the most entry level fundamentals of roofing that flashing is.
The proper protocol for running jnto this problem during project commencement is to STOP !!!
1.Call the contractor.
2.Contractor calls and meets homeowner.
3.Homeowner makes a decision.
4.Project continues.,,It should have never made it to that point but if it had that's the way it should have played out.
The customer is relying on the contractor to know what needs to be replaced or added.These details should be in writing kn their contract.The homeowner should not have to wonder if they have all the components to complete a functioning roof system once its complete.
They should not have to play games such as "The Blame Game" or "Lets have a stupid homeowner for $500 Alex".
On this workmanship warranty does it show an exclusion for the chimney flashing eliminating it from the warranty ?
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Any real roofer knows every chimmney needs flashing.
If there's a stone chimmney I would have walked straight to it to see how hard it was going to be to flash it.
The flashing on a chimmney is not hidden, from the ground you should be able to see there's no flashing.
If there's a stone chimmney I would have walked straight to it to see how hard it was going to be to flash it.
The flashing on a chimmney is not hidden, from the ground you should be able to see there's no flashing.
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I agree Joe,,I find it alarming that this homeowner lives in Florida which has some of the most strict building code laws and enforcement has no flashing on her chimney.
What is equally disturbing is the county inspector in which she lives signed off on the permit thus passing the final inspection.
When I was there my roofs were inspected as many as 3 times in 3 phases.I was present during my inspections and can say everything was inspected according to existing and revised FBC code requirements.
I myself would call the Building Department and have the supervisor of that inspector come out for a re-inspection.
What is equally disturbing is the county inspector in which she lives signed off on the permit thus passing the final inspection.
When I was there my roofs were inspected as many as 3 times in 3 phases.I was present during my inspections and can say everything was inspected according to existing and revised FBC code requirements.
I myself would call the Building Department and have the supervisor of that inspector come out for a re-inspection.
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Your contractor is responsible to not only fix the leak but to fix any interior damage as a result of the leak.
If he refuses you will have to get it fixed on your dime and take the contractor to court.
Even if the city signed it off the contractor is still the responsible party, the contractor knows flashing is required and thats the bottom line.
If he refuses you will have to get it fixed on your dime and take the contractor to court.
Even if the city signed it off the contractor is still the responsible party, the contractor knows flashing is required and thats the bottom line.
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The roofer may have came from CA and was told flashing causes cancer.
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legal forum
I would be posting this next in a legal forum, include copy of contract. Snap a photo of the rotten wood. The inspector needs to serve some time in jail.
I would be posting this next in a legal forum, include copy of contract. Snap a photo of the rotten wood. The inspector needs to serve some time in jail.
Thought about that too BUT in the end lets say they are like "YES, we messed up and this roof was passed w/o flashing on the chimney" would that help me or hurt me? Meaning IF the roofer is saying YES, I can make this right for $500 and then the inspector says "you have to get this fixed now..." I'm just pressed for the money now and can't afford to open another can of worms...
Do I have any right to say "hey that's why I had a permit and inspections done so this would not happen...YOU make them fix it and fix it at no charge!"I'm planning on uploading my contract so everyone can see what we signed and what we "thought" was being done. I appreciate your comment and was wondering...when you stated "bottom line contractors knows flashing is required." Do you think that with our house being the "weird one that had no flashing around the chimney" they could of noticed it and just thought "well it was fine before...and thought IF they did it the right way that would of been $ out of there pocket to make it right?" Then IF there was a problem we will get our $$$ later by charging them $500?? I just don't understand HOW and or WHY they just would not of done it when they were up there??? And how in the world it passed inspection....My contractor said when I asked that question "sometimes things just get overlooked, its no ones fault, things just happen sometime."
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Human nature says, yes things get over looked. No excues for a real roofer to have "over looked" this.
An inspector can not "make" anyone fix it. What he could have done while it was being done was not pass it and done a stop order until it was done.
Now your in a tough place, he's going to look like a fool when you have to go to his boss. Oh well if no one says anything it's going to just happen to someone else.
No way would I ever dare to go back and try and up charge a customer for work that I should have done in the first place!
One reason I pass on jobs when a customer wants to cheap out on a job.
If they want me to do a roof over, not use Storm and Ice on the bottom edge of the roof, no drip cap, reuse old vent flashings. I just refuse to do the job. Amazing how short there memory gets when it leaks of fails down the road.
We still have not seen a picture of this chimmney. I'd like to see how they did anything around a stone chimmney.
An inspector can not "make" anyone fix it. What he could have done while it was being done was not pass it and done a stop order until it was done.
Now your in a tough place, he's going to look like a fool when you have to go to his boss. Oh well if no one says anything it's going to just happen to someone else.
No way would I ever dare to go back and try and up charge a customer for work that I should have done in the first place!
One reason I pass on jobs when a customer wants to cheap out on a job.
If they want me to do a roof over, not use Storm and Ice on the bottom edge of the roof, no drip cap, reuse old vent flashings. I just refuse to do the job. Amazing how short there memory gets when it leaks of fails down the road.
We still have not seen a picture of this chimmney. I'd like to see how they did anything around a stone chimmney.
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Flashing around a chimney is roofing 101. Even if it were missed, the contractor knows there is a chimney on the roof and has flashing built into his cost. We charge a specific amount per chimney, it is built into our job cost.
The contract is not for them to install a leaking roof, you are contracting for a new roof covering and that means it is to be leak free for a period of whatever is on your contract. It should not be $ out of their pocket to flash it, if they missed it they are stupid.
FYI, they did NOT miss it, they are trying to avoid the cost invovled with fixing it after the fact and any potential interior damange that resulted from it. They are trying to misdirect you into believing the responsibility for this leak lies anywhere but with them. And to make it even worse, it sounds like they further want to insult you by charging you to fix their own F UP.
Try to get the city to reinspect the roof and use that as leverage with the contractor. Even if they do not budge on fixing it, it will be a nail in thier coffin in court. They are foolish to let this go to court, they should fix it while the fixing is cheap.
The contract is not for them to install a leaking roof, you are contracting for a new roof covering and that means it is to be leak free for a period of whatever is on your contract. It should not be $ out of their pocket to flash it, if they missed it they are stupid.
FYI, they did NOT miss it, they are trying to avoid the cost invovled with fixing it after the fact and any potential interior damange that resulted from it. They are trying to misdirect you into believing the responsibility for this leak lies anywhere but with them. And to make it even worse, it sounds like they further want to insult you by charging you to fix their own F UP.
Try to get the city to reinspect the roof and use that as leverage with the contractor. Even if they do not budge on fixing it, it will be a nail in thier coffin in court. They are foolish to let this go to court, they should fix it while the fixing is cheap.
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Yeah right,.maybe like a member of a Nascar pit crew who forgets to tighten up 3 lug nuts before the driver gets back on the track ready to run @ 185mph.,.or the fireman who forgets to fill up the water tank on the fire engine before being called out to a 4 alarm fire. :laughing:things just get overlooked, its no ones fault, things just happen sometime."
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I can't wrap my mind around the idea they didn't know there wasn't any flashing, nor what to do about it. WTH????
This by Andy;
"Flashing around a chimney is roofing 101. Even if it were missed, the contractor knows there is a chimney on the roof and has flashing built into his cost. We charge a specific amount per chimney, it is built into our job cost."
I mean, what the heck? I can't do the roof without flashing. It has nothing to do with whether or not any was already there. WTH? It's probbaly bad anyway after 20 years of service. Replacement is roofing 101.:yes:
Legally, I had to sign soemthing to the effect that stated I had to perform to certain standards. Even if I had to take a loss to do so. I don't remember the wording, but I would have been in serious poo-poo if I had left it like that with our SCC and BPOR regulatory agencies.
This by Andy;
"Flashing around a chimney is roofing 101. Even if it were missed, the contractor knows there is a chimney on the roof and has flashing built into his cost. We charge a specific amount per chimney, it is built into our job cost."
I mean,
what the heck? I can't do the roof without flashing. It has nothing to do with whether or not any was already there. WTH? It's probbaly bad anyway after 20 years of service. Replacement is roofing 101.:yes:Legally, I had to sign soemthing to the effect that stated I had to perform to certain standards. Even if I had to take a loss to do so. I don't remember the wording, but I would have been in serious poo-poo if I had left it like that with our SCC and BPOR regulatory agencies.
Pictures Inside and Out of Water Damage and NEW Roof & old chimney
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Sorry it's taken so long but I finally have the pictures to show everyone. Comments are always welcome and to those who have already helped, I appreciate it.
I am SAD to say that we are still going around and around, I am now being told that the roofer will do the flashing at $X amount of dollars BUT I need to find someone to do the mason work of removing and reinstalling the rock after they are done doing the flashing. Which of course will cost money as well.
So, I now see why they DID NOT do the flashing...they had no way of removing the stone and then putting it back and therefore just figured and hoped I guess that it would not leak and I would have no idea. That's all I can think of.
But as you can see THIS is what they saw when they came out to give me an est. of the new roof. So as a roofer if you came out and looked at my roof would you see with the blind eye that I never had flashing? I'm no roofer so I had NO idea we never had flashing around our chimney so I was not trying to pull a fast one...BUT as you can see now ALMOST A YEAR LATER the effects the water has caused INSIDE the home now too.
I've stated everything you all have said to the roofer but bottom line he is saying he is not responsible for the flashing when it was installed and that for $X amount he will make it right.
So before I proceed with going to court any helpful advice would be appreciated! Thanks!
PS: These pictures of the roof are AFTER the NEW roof was installed...However, this is what they saw when they came to do the est. meaning the old roof was just a lot older but the shingles where as they are now up against the chimney like this... so when I asked IF you saw this when you came out to give an est. on my roof would your trained eye know I DID NOT have flashing????
Sorry it's taken so long but I finally have the pictures to show everyone. Comments are always welcome and to those who have already helped, I appreciate it.
I am SAD to say that we are still going around and around, I am now being told that the roofer will do the flashing at $X amount of dollars BUT I need to find someone to do the mason work of removing and reinstalling the rock after they are done doing the flashing. Which of course will cost money as well.
So, I now see why they DID NOT do the flashing...they had no way of removing the stone and then putting it back and therefore just figured and hoped I guess that it would not leak and I would have no idea. That's all I can think of.
But as you can see THIS is what they saw when they came out to give me an est. of the new roof. So as a roofer if you came out and looked at my roof would you see with the blind eye that I never had flashing? I'm no roofer so I had NO idea we never had flashing around our chimney so I was not trying to pull a fast one...BUT as you can see now ALMOST A YEAR LATER the effects the water has caused INSIDE the home now too.
I've stated everything you all have said to the roofer but bottom line he is saying he is not responsible for the flashing when it was installed and that for $X amount he will make it right.
So before I proceed with going to court any helpful advice would be appreciated! Thanks!
PS: These pictures of the roof are AFTER the NEW roof was installed...However, this is what they saw when they came to do the est. meaning the old roof was just a lot older but the shingles where as they are now up against the chimney like this... so when I asked IF you saw this when you came out to give an est. on my roof would your trained eye know I DID NOT have flashing????
I just looked at your chimney and frankly it simply does not lend itself to be flashed properly. Not to mince words, it was built by an idiot. Any decent mason knows that he has to set counter flashing into the mortar joints of field stone, so they set their stone to make this possible. The guy that built this chimney was on Krak.
A stepped, cut in, counter-flashing of lead coated copper and new base flashing has to be installed to do this right. It will require cutting through rock with a diamond masonry blade. SInce you are in Florida, I would coat the chimney from the CF up with a good clear waterproofing like Hydrozo Enviroseal also after making sure all mortar is properly pointed.
We are not supposed to discuss prices, but it is my opinion that this chimney cannot be properly corrected for anywhere near 500 dollars. For that price all you are going to get is a schlock job with more roof cement.
You need a proper specification by a knowledgeable individual. Looks like this one is over the local building departments head.
A stepped, cut in, counter-flashing of lead coated copper and new base flashing has to be installed to do this right. It will require cutting through rock with a diamond masonry blade. SInce you are in Florida, I would coat the chimney from the CF up with a good clear waterproofing like Hydrozo Enviroseal also after making sure all mortar is properly pointed.
We are not supposed to discuss prices, but it is my opinion that this chimney cannot be properly corrected for anywhere near 500 dollars. For that price all you are going to get is a schlock job with more roof cement.
You need a proper specification by a knowledgeable individual. Looks like this one is over the local building departments head.
I agree and thank you so much for your detailed info on how the new mason job should be done.
I can't believe it but got a call just last night from my roofer stating that he does not want to go to court and has agreed to do the job of flashing around the chimney without charging me.
However, he stated he is not a mason so he will call around and get some contractors to come and look at the chimney to give a price. The kicker is he will do the job he was suppose to do (flashing) but stated, "You will need to pay for the mason work on the chimney to remove and add back the stone."
Do you have any idea on what that would cost me and or is that his responsibility and just trying to pass the BIG $ stuff off to me? I'm glad he is not charging me to add the chimney flashing (which was to be done right when the roof was put on.)
BUT now there is damage as a result of the "new roof" leaking due to the job not being done correct inside my living room. Is his insurance responsible for this?
So confused as to how I should proceed.
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