[nind]

My 1993 Trane Heat Pump system needed replacing. I live in Florida. The AC contractor recommended and I purchased two weeks ago and installed by Trane certified contractor a Trane XL15i 2.5 ton heat pump system model 4TWX5030A (Condenser) 4TEE3D40A (Air Handler) and Trane Clean Effects (do not have model number which brought up my question).

I discovered that the condenser that was installed was manufactured in 2007 (Trane has website that you can read what year manufactured from serial numbers) I demanded they replace with a new condenser not one from 2007, that I was purchasing in 2009 and have no idea where this unit has been stored for 2 years. They ordered a new one and installed it 2 days later. When I was provided Trane rebate form I discovered that the Air Handler was from 2007 and I have contacted them for the serial and model numbers for the Clean Effects which they have yet to provide to me. I spoke with the salesperson about the same problem with Air Handler manufactured in 2007 not a new manufacture model and where has it been. I was told they would get back with me with an answer. Two days later I have had no answer! They also did not provide to me any kind of paperwork for the system, i.e. owner manuals, warranties, etc., only an owner manual for the programmable Thermostat. The salesperson never discussed with me about purchasing any kind of extended warranty so I didn't know about that until I read about it online which appears to cover labor costs?

I tried to contact Trane but discovered you can't get a person and their website and phones refer you back to the dealer!!

I should mention that I am a woman, not that it should matter, but it seems that it does when they know your knowledge is very limited regarding home AC systems.

I am of the belief that with the downturn in residential real estate that they were left with all these old units and now they are trying to install them on unsuspecting customers that don't know any better.

Would someone please give me input on this since I need to address this ASAP.

Also is there a difference between the systems built in 2007 and 2009?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

 

[Home Air Direct]

I can't comment on whether there have been model revisions between 07 and 09 and will defer to a Trane dealer for that answer. One of my lines of equipment has not changed since 2007, so it is possible that an 07 unit is just as good as an 09 unit, as long as the charge has remained.

Really, this should not be too big of a problem. As long as you have proof of installation invoice that has the date on it, you should be covered warranty wise from that date, regardless of the born on serial date, as long as a Trane dealer was involved.

Now, your real problem is that of a contractor that was happy to get your project and take your money, but is not there for after-care. Stay on them till your questions are answered. If not, send Trane Corp. a snot-o-gram outlining your planned public effort to disparage their brand name. You will get a call from someone.

Good Luck

 

[nind]

Thank you very much for your reply. You mentioned so long as the "charge has remained". How would I know that? How would I know that the 2007 unit wasn't previously installed in another house under construction and then pulled? I would guess from your answer that there could be a difference in 2007 and 2009. Maybe the freon used? I understand there is a freon change coming. I am going to keep calling the dealer back until I am satisfied. The owner will be contacted if need be.

You are right - I will email Trane as you suggested. Thank you again.

 

[Home Air Direct]

Thank you very much for your reply. You mentioned so long as the "charge has remained". How would I know that? How would I know that the 2007 unit wasn't previously installed in another house under construction and then pulled? I would guess from your answer that there could be a difference in 2007 and 2009. Maybe the freon used? I understand there is a freon change coming. I am going to keep calling the dealer back until I am satisfied. The owner will be contacted if need be.

You are right - I will email Trane as you suggested. Thank you again.

Ok....I didn't state that correctly. As long as the units were warehoused correctly, and the correct refrigerant charges were taken care of at installation, then you should not have any problem.

And, it would not be unheard of for Trane to produce these units at the end of 07 and then sell them as a floor plan to a Trane dealer in 08, and for the Trane dealer to have a few left over to sell in 09. It is not a perfect scenerio, but it happens, and should not be a problem. Manufacturers and distrbutors have a history of overstocking dealers. Everybody has to show the numbers.

I would worry more about the dealer not returning your call to procure numbers that they should have at a finger tip instead of worry so much about the age of the equipment, as long as you got what your were supposed to get regarding specs.

 

[nind]

Thanks. Since they cannot answer me as to where these units have been or will not answer - that is why I am concerned. Funny how when I brought up the condenser unit outside for them to replace with 2009 they gave me no problem. Of course, they also weren't paid yet. If need be I can dispute the credit card charge and that was why I put it on credit card in case there was a problem with installation. Also, I noticed and commented to them about not changing out the old electrical and copper tubing connections to the new condenser - they used the old connections that were previously there. I recently had to have my house repiped because of pin hole leaks in the copper pipes - my house was built in 1993 but we have a problem here in Hillsborough County (Tampa) with water corroding copper pipes. When I pointed out that the copper pipe (tubing?) connection was from the old installation I was told "that the old copper was thicker than the new" which I then told them about my house repiping .... which they did not respond to. Is it usual practice to replace all connections when installing new? Thanks.

 

[dac122]

Also, I noticed and commented to them about not changing out the old electrical and copper tubing connections to the new condenser - they used the old connections that were previously there. I recently had to have my house repiped because of pin hole leaks in the copper pipes - my house was built in 1993 but we have a problem here in Hillsborough County (Tampa) with water corroding copper pipes. When I pointed out that the copper pipe (tubing?) connection was from the old installation I was told "that the old copper was thicker than the new" which I then told them about my house repiping .... which they did not respond to. Is it usual practice to replace all connections when installing new? Thanks.

Usual or not, does your original quote address replacing something called a lineset? If so you should have gotten new. If not, its really a judgement call by the pro.

Other circumstances are when switching from R-22 to R-410A many pros prefer just replacing the lineset instead of flushing.

 

[nind]

No. As I am finding out my sales person did not discuss a lot of things with me that should have been discussed. Refrigerant used, extended warranty, lineset, etc. Judgment call by the Pro? They had to send the installation manager out after the original installation tech! I have placed a call to the County building department to find out whether they pulled a permit, had work inspected, county codes for replacement installation, etc. I was told by contractor sales person these things were handled by them and included in the price. Thanks again for your input.

 

[Plumber101]

My 1993 Trane Heat Pump system needed replacing. I live in Florida. The AC contractor recommended and I purchased two weeks ago and installed by Trane certified contractor a Trane XL15i 2.5 ton heat pump system model 4TWX5030A (Condenser) 4TEE3D40A (Air Handler) and Trane Clean Effects (do not have model number which brought up my question).

I discovered that the condenser that was installed was manufactured in 2007 (Trane has website that you can read what year manufactured from serial numbers) I demanded they replace with a new condenser not one from 2007, that I was purchasing in 2009 and have no idea where this unit has been stored for 2 years. They ordered a new one and installed it 2 days later. When I was provided Trane rebate form I discovered that the Air Handler was from 2007 and I have contacted them for the serial and model numbers for the Clean Effects which they have yet to provide to me. I spoke with the salesperson about the same problem with Air Handler manufactured in 2007 not a new manufacture model and where has it been. I was told they would get back with me with an answer. Two days later I have had no answer! They also did not provide to me any kind of paperwork for the system, i.e. owner manuals, warranties, etc., only an owner manual for the programmable Thermostat. The salesperson never discussed with me about purchasing any kind of extended warranty so I didn't know about that until I read about it online which appears to cover labor costs?

I tried to contact Trane but discovered you can't get a person and their website and phones refer you back to the dealer!!

I should mention that I am a woman, not that it should matter, but it seems that it does when they know your knowledge is very limited regarding home AC systems.

I am of the belief that with the downturn in residential real estate that they were left with all these old units and now they are trying to install them on unsuspecting customers that don't know any better.

Would someone please give me input on this since I need to address this ASAP.

Also is there a difference between the systems built in 2007 and 2009?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

With the model number you posted the system is R-410A

Also the heat pump that was put in has a 10yr parts and 10 yr compressor warranty that comes standard. Reguardless of when the condenser was made warr starts on the install date. I some times get a unit that is 6-9 months old. Just keep in mind the product you buy was not built just for you and some distributors buy in bulk to keep there cost down and won't reorder until stock - supply/demand a paticular piece of equiptment is needed. Not excuse the unit being 2 yrs old. Two yrs ago 2 1/2tn HP were in high demand and they ordered 15 and the sold 10. Now 5 set and in the next two yrs only 3 more sell. Still two set. Supply/Demand. There really was nothing wrong with a two yr old unit.

Since you didn't buy a warr contract which you really don't need since you have 10 yr parts and compressor warr you can call any Trane contractor for warr work.

Most contractor don't buy directly from trane but through a distributor of trane. If you PM me with who installed I can try to have my trane rep find out who the distributor is and you can contact them.

I am a trane dealer and it completely pisses me off when other dealers drop the ball and give all of us a bad name

Let me kow if I can help

 

[beenthere]

Thats a 10 year parts ONLY warranty.

Labor cost can be very expesive.

 

[nind]

Plumber 101:

Thank you for your reply and information. My thought is that a 2 year old model ac purchased and installed in 2009 should be 2009 model unless it is beginning of year then 2008 would be understandable. I willl use the analogy of if I were purchasing a new 2009 model car and they instead substituted a 2007 model and tell me that it has never been titled,driven on the road, brand new - why would I want it - it is 2 years old already. but as we all know they would of course be giving me a huge discount on that older model. If I buy something new, I expect it to be new - not sitting around who knows where in what kind of environment. I could understand if the model were a few months old or even a year, but not from 2007 and they can't tell me now where anything has been stored for two years. Also salesperson is negligent in the fact that they did not inform me of various things that I feel they should have since they are in the business and I am not and it is their job to give me information for me to make an informed decision. "Been there" is right - when I went online today and found out that the warranty does not cover labor, diagnosis costs, refrigerant, etc. - that can get quite expensive. Of course, that would mean more money in their pocket why should they sell me an extended warranty. Plus now that I also learned today online about linesets and I specifically brought this to their attention after the install about why they did not replace the hook ups to the condenser which seemed like a basic that should have been done since the old lines are 16 years old and what do I know except it seemed logical to me - and they used the old hook ups and the reason I was given was pure bull - how do I know that they flushed/ the lines properly and as I understand it that can be a real problem and greatly decrease the life of the new system especially since I now know that the refrigerant is different from what was used in my old AC, etc. I also noticed online that one of the exclusions under the warranty does not cover for improper installation!! I don't trust their work now at all and I am considering having someone else come out and look over and check the work they did. I placed two calls to the County building department today regarding permit/inspections/codes and left messages with two different people and no one called me back so I will follow up with them again in the morning. I did not tell about how the contractor came to my home at 8:00 in the morning and at 8:00 that evening I had no air because they did not finish the job! No duct work - no new construction, etc. just a replacement and job not finished in one day. I called and told them they needed to get someone out the next morning to finish the job and that is when I addressed with them the older model and they said the would ordered a new one and it would be in the following day for installation. I should have gotten up in the garage and looked at that time about the dates on the air handler and cleaneffects but I did not. Since I bought this house 11 years ago I only used Gulf Coast for service and I had a service maintenance agreements with them and never had a problem with them so I naturally went to them for new system. The company is Gulf Coast Air in Tampa/Valrico/Brandon, Florida. I certainly would appreciate it if you could let me know the distributor. Tomorrow I will be calling my sales person about the issues including where is my paper work such as owners manuals, warranties, etc.

I have to say that this website has been a blessing with all the knowledge you all have in answering my questions. Thanks so much to everyone.

 

[Home Air Direct]

I am going to be the unpopular one here and tell you that I think you are way over thinking this and are creating much of you own drama and problems. I know that is not a very nice thing to say, but step back for a moment and take these thing into account.

1 The company DID install the new system that you obviously agreed to. You are making assumptions about the distribution processes of this industry that are way off base. Whether your units are factory fresh, or two years old is only relevant if the model years had significant changes. You have NEW equipment that was installed by professional contractors. Your car analogy is not a good comparison. Age has very little to do with value. There is no Kelly Blue Book of furnace values.

2 Offering Extended labor warranties is not a practice or business philosophy that every contractor subscribes to. As a matter of fact, probably less than 1/3 of contractors offer labor warranties. That your contractor did not offer you the labor warranty is in no way a breach of any contract. If the system was installed correctly, and is maintained, the odds of needing that "insurance policy" is minimal. If you really want the extended labor warranty, have them sell it to you now. If they have them available, they can sell you one during a window of time after the installation.

3 Line Set: If your contract spelled out the replacement, than you should have had a new one. If the contractor did flush correctly and was able to utilize the same size of lines, than you will most likely be fine. A good installer can use an older lineset and be ok, just as a bad installer can put in a new lineset and contaminate if not done properly. Also, the fact that your copper water pipes have had leaking issues I doubt has much bearing on your refrigeration lines.

4 Model #s: I have felt from the beginning that this was really your only beef. if you need the model numbers to fill out a rebate form, or to qualify for a tax credit, and they will not provide them for you, there is a problem. But that does not make your equipment bad or inferior, nor does it make your installation less than acceptable.

I will remind you that you came to this forum seeking the thoughts and advice of professionals, so please also be prepared to hear an opinion that is not in your favor. Your attitude in your writing and discription of the process along with your statment that you placed this on a credit card for the sole purpose of being able to dipute the charges, leads me to think that you have a doubting mind about many things and that you are looking for a problem.

I do wish you the best of luck with your issues, and hope you are able to resolve.

 

[dec1000]

I just had a Trane XL 15i model number 4TWX5036A1000AA and Model number 4TEE3F40B1000AA installed on 6-3-2009. The manufacture date on both units is 5/2009. Thats why it is always very good to get as many quotes as possible. Compare them all. Some were going to replace the Lineset and some weren't. The quotes were all over the place in price on the same equipment. The price I used was half of what the highest quote I had. Does your qualify for the $1500 tax credit? If so they should of gave you a number saying it qualifies for it. The warranty is 12 years on compressor and 10 yearson outdoor coil and indoor coil and functional parts.

 

[dac122]

No. As I am finding out my sales person did not discuss a lot of things with me that should have been discussed. Refrigerant used, extended warranty, lineset, etc. Judgment call by the Pro?

Okay I guess that didn't come out right. What I meant is that there are a number ways to handle linesets in the industry. Some just replace them; some make their best assessment based on install issues; some are very cost sensitive to the customer; for some other issues prevail. Its all a judgement call/preference by the pro where there are not set rules.

The exception is if you are switching from an R-22 to 410A, and then the only acceptable industry practices are replace or flush. The choice there again is up to the pro based on judgement call/preference.

 

[dec1000]

Each situation is different, sometimes it requires the installer to destroy drywall etc to run the lines and then that would have to be repaired. Speaking from my install, it was a easy run with access to the whole line and I felt that any installer that didn't want to replace my lineset was just cutting corners and being lazy.

 

[nind]

Thank you for your reply. I noticed you had a lot of "ifs" in your comments and that you have not responded to a lot of the matters I did mention. You failed to take into consideration that I have used this same company exclusively for service for 12 years and never once had a problem so I was not looking for problems. FYI - I have never in my life disputed a credit card charge for services and I am 62 years old. I understand that you possibly are, were, or work for an AC contractor and it seems that you have the perspective of someone who tries to do the right thing from the contractor's viewpoint. However, I am just a customer with very little knowledge about AC systems and I am coming from a customer's standpoint dealing with things that arose after installation and not being able to get answers from the installing contractor. Thank you again.

 

[nind]

Thank you for your reply. I didn't know anything about linesets when I met with the sales person and it was not in the order nor ever even mentioned. If I had known at the time I would have discussed replacement or flush. By the way, there would have been no tearing out drywall, etc. easy run with access to the whole line. I know that copper is very expensive but I would have gladly paid for new lines if I were given that option or told that they would be flushing instead. Thanks!

 

[Home Air Direct]

I understand that you possibly are, were, or work for an AC contractor and it seems that you have the perspective of someone who tries to do the right thing from the contractor's viewpoint. However, I am just a customer with very little knowledge about AC systems and I am coming from a customer's standpoint dealing with things that arose after installation and not being able to get answers from the installing contractor. Thank you again.

Ma'am, it is funny that you bring up my background. I have never worked for a contractor. I have been the VP of a distribution company that sold the equipment to contractors, so I have a reasonably solid knowledge about how the distribution process goes. Also, you seem to think that I am a champion for contractors. That is actually funny, because I actually own a website that does nothing but uncover some of the sales scams that HVAC contractors use to extract unreasonable amounts of money from homeowners. I have decades of experience watching contractors (not all certainly, but some) deceive homeowners. If you went back and looked at my posts, you would see that I rarely take the side of contractor. I am truly a champion of the homeowner.

In your case, I just don't think from your writings that you have been extremely wronged. I do think you have utilized a high profile contractor that may have been more interested in selling the job than making sure you were completely satisfied, but I don't really see a big "smoking gun" of wrong or deceit on the part of your contractor.

If you are not happy with your purchase, exercise the rights that you have for resention and have it removed. I guarantee you that if you were to make that call, whatever you need from your contractor will be addressed. They hate that.

You know, in the end it is your checkbook and your credit card, so you should have an expectation about your satisfaction. If you have a new system, and it works properly, you did actually get what you agreed to pay for. If the contractor failed to provide you with documentation that you are entitled, get after them.

 

[dec1000]

Does the system qualify for the $1500 tax credit?

 

[nind]

Finally I was just given a few minutes ago by the contractor model and serial numbers for the system to fill in for the Trane rebate form. They are now telling me the Cleaneffects is "built into the air handler" which conflicts with what the installer told me when he opened a separate box containing the "Cleaneffects" part and he told me the "Cleaneffects" part attaches to the side of the air handler. I purchased a Trane XL15i 2.5 ton heat pump system.

Condenser Model #4TWX5030A1000AA
Air Handler Model #4TEE3D40A1000AA

I tried to look up the numbers and it looked like the Condenser is for an XL15i but the Air Handler is for XL16i. Is this possible? Are they matched for use?

The Contractor told me that the XL15i system qualified for the $1500 tax credit. If the Air Handler Model is for an XL16i which I remember being told did not qualify, would that effect my tax credit? Thanks.

 

[beenthere]

Keep in mind.
That as long as you have the contractors invoice, showing the air handler and outdoor unit were installed together. You get the 10 year part warranty on the air handler. Even though the air handler was made 2 years ago.

I'd just ask for a credit. From the contractor since its 2 years old.
A small credit.