[brady5885]

So I just installed a 2- 2x12 x 10' header and I hate it, it divides the room too much for my liking. I'm a home DIYer and had a draftsman do the drawing and then I had them approved at the local county office.

I want to hide 8" by recessing it, can I use 2x8 joist hangers on the same header or does it have to be engineered lumber or more plys etc??

I'm out of Fairfax VA if that helps.

 

[joecaption]

An engineer would be need with stamp drawings for a redesign like that and require major reconstrution.
Big difference from a header to a let in main beam.
Pictures would sure help when making guesses.

 

[brady5885]

We had drawings stamped and approved.
It wouldn't take major reconstruction, it would mean me cutting the joists and moving the header up and put it on taller posts.
I installed it and took it out again.

For some reason my phone says error when resizing image

 

[WhatRnsdownhill]

are the ceiling joists already split ontop of that header? not one continous beam from one side to the other?

 

[brady5885]

Correct, yes.

 

[joecaption]

What your suggesting doing effects the whole structure of the home.
The top loading goes all the way down through the floor to whatever is below it down to the ground and most often must be on proper footings.
Ceiling would need temperary supports on both sides.
I'd be surprized if the building department allowed you to just add spacers and not make you use redo with all new stacked 2X's.

 

[Bud9051]

The ceiling joists not only hold the ceiling up, they often hold the walls together to oppose the weight of the roof and any load it is designed to carry. Snow load is common, but I don't know your location.

As an option, if the space above is just empty attic, in some cases the header can be installed above the joists, allowing them to remain connected covering the span to hold the walls together.

In addition to installing your new beam, you need to be sure that load is supported on each end ant the total weight is transferred to proper supports below. Thus the need for an engineer to work out the details.

Bud

 

[brady5885]

Ok, I had drawings made, approved and I installed as per drawings.
I have new footings for the posts, 4x4s etc.
All I'm wanting to do is to move the header up 8" so it's recessed and use hangers.

I'm not saying I want a wall out can I put a header in lol

 

[joecaption]

Whole design has been changed so old drawings mean nothing.
Going to have to go back and get a whole new plan and permit.
4 X 4's for what?
4 X 4's are going to want to twist and curl.
Still have no pictures of anything so where all stuck having to guess what reality would dictate.

 

[TheEplumber]

Ok, I had drawings made, approved and I installed as per drawings.
I have new footings for the posts, 4x4s etc.
All I'm wanting to do is to move the header up 8" so it's recessed and use hangers.

I'm not saying I want a wall out can I put a header in lol

Whoever engineered your drawings will have the answer. Have him make the corrections if needed and have it in hand for your inspector.

 

[brady5885]

Whole design has been changed so old drawings mean nothing.
Going to have to go back and get a whole new plan and permit.
4 X 4's for what?
4 X 4's are going to want to twist and curl.
Still have no pictures of anything so where all stuck having to guess what reality would dictate.

He spec'd 4x4 for the upright supports for the header.
One is embedded in the wall (see to left of pic), the other goes from the header down into the basement approx. 16ft onto a new footing.
I have removed the header and 16ft column for now

 

[joed]

2x12 are not going to be flush even when recessed. It is still going to stick down 4 inches.
Your engineer will be able size something 7.5" to sit flush with the existing 2x8s.

 

[oh'mike]

If you really don't like the look---you have been given two very viable solutions--

A beam 7 1/2 " perhaps with a steel flitch plate--and a saddle beam--mounted above the cieling----

Your idea will also work---however, as long as you have an engineer on board, check with him--the hangers needed will be important,whatever remedy you select.

 

[WhatRnsdownhill]

you shouldnt have an issue, just run it past the engineer that did the original drawings to make sure, and it will be flush on the bottom for a smooth ceiling and the rest of the header will stick above the ceiling joists...Ive got 4 x 4s holding a deck up for 15 years and they are straight as the day I put them in..they wont twist or warp...

 

[Bud9051]

Just to add, I see a stairwell to the right of this new wall, so those joists do not extend outside to outside and I would assume there is a full story above. If living space is above, then the saddle beam is out.

If you don't want to revisit the engineer, then you will need to get your local inspector to sign off. Somebody closer to the project than we are needs to assume the responsibility.

Bud

 

[brady5885]

I won't be saddling the beam/header.
It will be supported each end sitting on 4x4 posts.
There is a floor above, but directly above this area is attic space

 

[Bud9051]

The stairwell being adjacent to your header project could complicate the issue. The opening for the stairs cut all of the joists that were in the way and probably doubled up on each end to help with support. It looks like your new recessed beam would be cutting one of those doubles. Even if not doubled, there is concern that the remaining joists are under more load than might be expected. When you cut those joists you may discover that they separate as the exterior walls move outward. That risk is why your code people will need an engineer to say all will be ok.

Bud

 

[carpdad]

Header under, over or in a joist bay, are all same things. Your building department should ok it with a new drawing. Make the corrected drawing on the plan and you should be able to do it yourself. Minimum you can do is try.
Joists serve a purpose as wall/roof ties too, and the hangers are usually approved, but short hanger nails are not. If not, use straps/angles/threaded rods. Doesn't have to be every joist.
If recessing, you will need more room. You may have to move the temp wall. Definitely cut out more sheetrock. Have ocillating saw, sharp chisel and grinder handy for tight space/nails. May want angle drill or palm nailer/compressor. Joists may have more nails from top than you guess. Don't try to yank out the cut in one piece. Make header sample and test each cut bay. 1/8" is very acceptable with a hanger.
Don't cut the header to fit tight. You may have to lift it straight up.
If the space above is attic, anyway you can take the lumber in pieces and make the header above?

 

[Daniel Holzman]

There is a difference between a below header that supports joists above, and a flush header that supports joists via brackets. In the case of the (conventional) below header, the joists above are typically nailed together where they cross the header. So the joists go into tension if the walls exert spreading forces, and the tension is carried in shear by the nails that hold the joists together.

In the case of a flush header, the brackets need to carry the tension. So you need the correct bracket that is capable of carrying the pullout forces on the bracket exerted by the wall. Nails are typically not suitable for direct pullout loads, so the bracket has to be designed to develop the required force through shear. Make sure you use the right bracket, if I were doing the job I would use a Simpson bracket, and I would call Simpson directly to make SURE I was using the correct bracket for the job.

 

[brady5885]

There is a difference between a below header that supports joists above, and a flush header that supports joists via brackets. In the case of the (conventional) below header, the joists above are typically nailed together where they cross the header. So the joists go into tension if the walls exert spreading forces, and the tension is carried in shear by the nails that hold the joists together.

In the case of a flush header, the brackets need to carry the tension. So you need the correct bracket that is capable of carrying the pullout forces on the bracket exerted by the wall. Nails are typically not suitable for direct pullout loads, so the bracket has to be designed to develop the required force through shear. Make sure you use the right bracket, if I were doing the job I would use a Simpson bracket, and I would call Simpson directly to make SURE I was using the correct bracket for the job.

I went with simpson stuff and ordered it the other week. its definitely beefy and I had shown my draftsman them with their load rating numbers etc and said they are all good.
The support post bracket that is.

Were you talking about joist hangers or the post bracket