[Walker88]

Hello, i am new here.. an have a few questions..

I would like to replace the flooring in my kitchen and dinning area with tile. I live in Michigan in a mobile home built in the 1980's.. Recently just purchased.. I am in the process of updating and i would like to update my 1980s flooring.



I was wondering if i could just do this guys style and lay down the tile over vinyl. http://www.ronhazelton.com/projects/how_to_install_ceramic_tile_over_vinyl_flooring
My floor is very solid no peels no tears and no lifts, seems to be pretty level for the most part. I have read on many sites not to do this.. But with this guys laying down the fabric and cementing it adds the strength i need?. now my plans are to remodel (update) and then sell it to buy a house. Now i could probably go a cheaper route and do like stick vinyl or wood flooring, but personal i think the tile gives a home an nice modern style an wont make it feel like a mobile home (trailer).

thanks..

p.s dont be to harsh on me.. im new to this :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[joecaption]

Not a great plan, going over vinyl is tricky enough, add in it's going in a mobile home and I just do not see this working out for very long.
To much flex, most likly all you have for a subfloor is partical board, there may be 1/4 underlaymant, both of which are not exceptable under tile.
What would work is a linolium that looks like tile or even a laminite floor with a tile pattern.
Do not even think about peel and stick tiles!!

 

[Frattman]

If the floor is in good shape, without any squeaks or deflection, you can staple and nail wire mesh on top of the vinyl, skim coat the mesh, and tile on top of that. The wire mesh is superior to this other system you posted, as it mechanically fastens to the floor (so you're not relying on the existing linoleum glue for the only attachment to the sub-floor). Make sure you get that wire mesh nice and flat.

I've used this method dozens of times to good effect, and I've seen floors my uncle has tiled 25 years ago in this manner hold up perfectly well.

 

[rusty baker]

If the floor is in good shape, without any squeaks or deflection, you can staple and nail wire mesh on top of the vinyl, skim coat the mesh, and tile on top of that. The wire mesh is superior to this other system you posted, as it mechanically fastens to the floor (so you're not relying on the existing linoleum glue for the only attachment to the sub-floor). Make sure you get that wire mesh nice and flat.

I've used this method dozens of times to good effect, and I've seen floors my uncle has tiled 25 years ago in this manner hold up perfectly well.

Most tile pros will tell you that this is a bad idea. And mobile home floors usually have too much flex for ceramic. Where's Jaz? And I have never met a tile pro who like Tavy.

 

[Walker88]

ok but from my understanding.. after i lay that fabric down, cement over it, it will harden and then there will be no flex???

 

[rusty baker]

ok but from my understanding.. after i lay that fabric down, cement over it, it will harden and then there will be no flex???

Not true. Wait for Jaz or Oh' Mike, they are tile experts. They do it for a living.

 

[oh'mike]

Any mobile home or double wide that I have seen has had to weak of a floor system for ceramic tile----

Only once have I installed ceramic in a double wide and there was an understanding with the customer that the tile would very likely fail---(small bathroom)

I did add extra plywood and 1/4" wonder board ,but I figured it would fail eventually---
For better or for worse--they are no longer living there so I will never know.

I suggest you do not attempt tile---and definitely not over old sheet vinyl--

 

[JazMan]

Walker,

As mentioned already, mobile homes are not a good bet for ceramic tiles. The framing is usually 24" on center, and subfloor the cheapest 5/8" particleboard or MDF they can find. Way too much flex.

Mr Tavy's methods are not accepted by any testing organization I'm familiar of. He's become a DIYer's hack promotor. In theory it could work if the structure was good, (yours isn't), but it's all dependent on the vinyl tiles staying stuck. I will bet if you checked carefully some of your tiles are not stuck well or would come up easily.

Likewise the method that Frattman suggested is a bad nethod. It's known as "scratch-coat" and Jersey-Mud job". That method is most common is parts of the East Coast and parts of Canada. It's used when saving $$$ if job #1. Many that use this method do so to win the job away from another using a different and approved proven method. They might charge a dollar less a foot, (it's worth maybe (2-3 less). This method has been tested many times and has always failed. It may work 80% of the time though.

ok but from my understanding.. after i lay that fabric down, cement over it, it will harden and then there will be no flex???

Where did you hear that?

Jaz

 

[jeffnc]

Mr Tavy's methods are not accepted by any testing organization I'm familiar of.

I like this quote from that link: "All of the worries that come with installing tile over vinyl, have literally been covered up."

That I can believe

Anyway, I'd trust a system like Mapei's before I'd trust Tavy's.
http://www.mapei.it/public/COM/products/Mapelath_TDS_EA.pdf

 

[Bud Cline]

Walker88: "I have read on many sites not to do this..."

And still you come here looking for someone to agree with your unproven approach.

It appears you are only reading-into this project what YOU want to.

1. Ceramic tile in mobile homes has never worked. Maybe some modular homes but never a mobile home.

2. The "scratch-coat method" has been proven by the tile industry not to work over and over and over again. It has been tested many times and it has failed each time.

3. Armand Tavy? Well what can I say about Mr. Tavy. His methods too, haven been proven not to work. Tavy products are nothing more than a low-ballers ideas of how to do something. His products are not flying off the shelves.

4. Installing ceramic tile over vinyl is also poo-poohed by the tile installation industry, it isn't a good idea.

5. For a "cement system" to begin to carry the installation the cement would have to be a minimum of 1-1/4" thick and then it must be installed over an adequate structure - yours is not an adequate structure.

I'd stay with a new vinyl tile.

 

[Frattman]

2. The "scratch-coat method" has been proven by the tile industry not to work over and over and over again. It has been tested many times and it has failed each time. (sorry, I don't know how to quote)

I'll admit that I've never tiled a mobile home, and maybe you guys know better than I if this is a bad idea, but I have never once seen a scratch coat floor fail. I have ripped up perhaps two dozen floors of ceramic, slate, marble etc. . laid on top of wire mesh and tar paper all varying in age from 10 to 40 years old (and purely for aesthetic reasons). No cracks, no grout popping, in great shape. It is not cheaper, and certainly not easier to put wire down compared to backer board. For 40 years this method has worked for my grandfather, 30 for my uncle, and 11 for me (I use it when height is an issue). I've personally seen floors tiled by my grandfather and uncle decades ago that are in perfect shape.

I'd like to know how many scratch coat floors you guys have laid, or seen fail, and your theories as to the discrepancy between our experiences with this method.

 

[Bud Cline]

I'd like to know how many scratch coat floors you guys have laid, or seen fail, and your theories as to the discrepancy between our experiences with this method.

Say what you will in an attempt to defend yourself and your methods. The comments about "failure" of this method are not "theory". This method has been tested repeatedly in an effort to sanction it and it has failed repeatedly. If you could show us where this method appears in the Tile Council of North America's Handbook for Ceramic, Glass, and Stone Tile Installation, it would be appreciated.

Not sure that anyone using the method would come here and publicly talk about his past failures.

:yes:

I have ripped up perhaps two dozen floors of ceramic, slate, marble etc. . laid on top of wire mesh and tar paper all varying in age from 10 to 40 years old

:yes:

 

[joecaption]

I personaly have had to rip out at least three, all were in bathrooms.
All had leaked for so long there was floor joist, and wall stud damage.

 

[Walker88]

well MR bud cline.

i came to this site asking for info on if tavys designs will work. as i stated i am new to this.

an yes i am reading into the project that I want to do.( but i am reading how it should be done)

Now remember i stated i live in a mobile double wide. I was just looking at laying over the vinyl because i don't have alot of cash to rebuilding sub floors and so on, so yes maybe i am looking to save a few $$$ and not to mention my floors is the rolled out vinyl and that can be a pain to pull up. (no problems if need to be).. also laminate flooring can be expensive, so by doing laminate i will be spending just much money as i would probably rebuilding my sub flooring an tiles.

 

[jeffnc]

This method has been tested repeatedly in an effort to sanction it and it has failed repeatedly.

What do you think about Mapelath?

 

[Bud Cline]

What do you think about Mapelath?

Oh no you don't !!!

I will say that there is science available for Mapelath and Mapei International has done extensive testing of their product. Obviously with acceptable results.

You can't say the same thing about a Jersey Mud Job. The Jersey Mud Job has repeatedly failed the Robinson Test.

 

[jeffnc]

Oh no you don't !!!

What I was trying to ask you was Tavy vs. Mapelath, not "jersey mud".

The point I'm trying to get at is this: we've seen new technology improve (Ditra, et al.) Perhaps Tavy or Mapelath are that new technology.

Other than generic distaste and jumping on bandwagons (which is the favorite activity of some of these forum members), I haven't really heard anything that convinces me either of these 2 products is either good or bad. (I haven't used either, but I'm always on the lookout for new products/techniques.)

 

[Frattman]

Bud,

First of all, you used both of my quotes out of context.

Secondly, since Mapei International has done extensive scientific testing on all of their products (obviously with acceptable results), I will scrap wire mesh and tar paper all together since their thin set is approved for use right on top of plywood.

This is the logical vice you put yourself in when you outsource your common sense to corporations - even well respected ones like Mapei. I'm always open to new and better ways of doing things (I use Ditra, Hardi-Backer, etc . . .), but it seems to me that the personal experience of seeing a method hold up to the test of time is a better justification for continuing to use it than any testing a company may promise.

Saying all of that, I'm not looking to change anyone's mind or hold on to a bygone era just for the sake of being stubborn, but I resent the insinuation that I am a hack, and the sanctimonious tone that I sometimes hear on these forums. I'm always appreciative of advice, and eager to learn, and I guess I will just be asking from now on rather than giving any poor advice.

 

[jeffnc]

but it seems to me that the personal experience of seeing a method hold up to the test of time is a better justification for continuing to use it than any testing a company may promise.

Personal experience should trump company testing. However, it shouldn't trump standardized industry testing, because they take more things into account than we do, and over a longer period of time. Personal experience can trick you into thinking things are OK that aren't.

Having said that, I do also resent the dogmatic attitudes I sometimes see on DIY Chatroom. For example, you'd think tiling over plywood will result in your house falling down if you listen to the tile forum, while the manufacturers and TCA both accept it. I'm a Ditra guy, don't get me wrong... I'm just sayin'.....

 

[Bud Cline]

What I was trying to ask you was Tavy vs. Mapelath, not "jersey mud".

Tavy what? Are you talking about the Tavy Thin Skin and the 007 and trying to compare it to Mapelath?

Two different products.

I have no idea where Tavy is with his underlayment products today. I do know there was a time when Tavy approached both the TCNA and the CTEF and ANSI multiple times in an effort to have his products sanctioned by them and they repeatedly poo-poohed the product(s). Don't know why, other than they didn't pass their testing methods.

Perhaps Tavy or Mapelath are that new technology.

Mapelath has been around a long time, certainly isn't new. Same goes for the Tavy products.

...you'd think tiling over plywood will result in your house falling down if you listen to the tile forum, while the manufacturers and TCA both accept it.

True enough, for all that statement is worth. The TCNA does allow for use of plywood as a direct tile underlayment but only a specific plywood and only under specific conditions and only in limited situations, using only a specific size tile and a limited type of adhesives. (See: F142-11, TCNA Handbook 2011).

The problem with what you are finding on the Internet Forums is most experienced tile installers are aware of the perils that exist in using such a method. It is seen as a somewhat risky method yielding minimal results. With a little Internet Forum experience you quickly learn that a lot of DIY'ers will read between the lines and extract only the information that suits their limited knowledge, limited ability, limited experience, and limited bank account.

The approved plywood quickly becomes CDX because it is less costly, the high performance modified thinset quickly becomes dryset thinset because it is seriously cheaper, the limited size tile (8") quickly becomes 12" tile because it is easier to find and more desirable today, the maximim joist spacing of 16" quickly becomes 19.2" or 24" because that is what they have and it is tile they want no matter what. The fact that the method will not withstand high impacts, wheel loads, or point loads escapes them.

So...it is for those reasons that some of us seasoned pros forbid the thought of installing any tile directly over plywood and strongly and repeatedly recommend against the idea.

Now, if you as a student-of-tile-installation want to discuss the specifics of a method of installing tile directly to plywood that does work then I would be happy to help you.

...you'd think tiling over plywood will result in your house falling down if you listen to the tile forum

I challenge you to go anywhere on the Internet and copy and paste (here) where it is someone has made that statement, provide the link also.

You can't do it and you won't find it on this forum either.

So are you here to learn or just looking for an excuse to get your feathers ruffled?

This is one of the reasons I quit participating here on a regular basis. There are always people coming along seeking out what they perceive to be the big-dogs of the forum and then challenging them and getting their feelings hurt, calling them out over nonsense . If you have perused this Chatroom then you know by now that I take no prisoners. If it's knowledge and experience and information you want then here I am, if you simply want to pound your chest then I'm not interested.