[***]

Hello all,

I have a situation that I need some perspective on. I'm having some electrical work done on an house build in 1963. Just like every one else I have alot of upgrade work that needs doing and a fixed budget.

First, the electrical in this house was just fine no problems; but I wanted to install a dishwasher. To stay within the city code I need to add a dedicated circuit for the dishwasher but the breaker panel was full. I though about upgrading it but found out that having a breaker panel in the closet is no longer within code and I knew that as long as I didn't make any changes it would be grandfathered in. I called an electrician. I asked him about upgrading from a 125 amp panel to a 200amp panel. I was thinking since I needed to have more circuits available that I may as well upgrade the panel so I could add more circuits for additional upgrades as the kitchen is being restored and more circuits would expand my options.

I knew the service entry was out of date but also grandfathered in, so I asked the electrician to upgrade the service entry. He kept telling me about other things that needed to be upgraded, his exact words were "for $30,000.00 you could have a nice little house" (tearing out the sheet rock so that the whole house could be rewired). I told him that investing $30,00.00 in that house was not a sound financial decision because the house would be overvalued against the other properties in the neighborhood. I also told him that because of cash flow I would need to do things in stages. I asked him to move the service entry and and install a 200amp breaker box outside and send me a bill. I specified a cooper buss in the breaker box and copper wire for the service entry wire. He sent the bill and I paid it, noting that he charged me $74.25 for 45' 4/0 service wire. I'm betting this is not cooper wire but I won't know until I can get there as this house is an 8 hour drive for me.

Now I'm ready to start the next stage of the project and I ask another electrician to quote me on rewiring the kitchen into the new panel and wiring the old breaker box into the new panel as a sub-panel. This electrician informs me that that's not possible because when the last electrician moved the service entry he pulled the old service wire, removed the old service panel, removed the old outlet boxes and cut the wires to the outlet boxes up into the wall. NOW I"M MAD! I have no other option than to rewire the entire house.

My question is: Is there a valid reason for the electrician to do all this demolition when he upgraded the service entry and installed a exterior breaker box? Please let me know if you can think of one.

MAT

 

[Arrow3030]

Please clarify. You hired him to install a 200A service with a copper bus and copper service conductors. Was this new panel to be connected to anything or was it supposed to be changed over in stages?

4/0 is almost certainly aluminum.

I can't imagine a good reason to demo branch circuits in the house.

 

[psgama]

4/0 is the right size for aluminum 200A Service. It's much cheaper than copper. Not many people use copper for the service entrance cable, but if thats what you requested and what you were quoted, He should have supplied 2/0 Copper.

There was no reason for the electrician to remove the old panel and cut your branch circuit conductors.

 

[Arrow3030]

It's unusual for aluminum to be used for a service drop/lateral in my region. We are required to use 2" RMC for a 200A service drop. What is unusual is a copper bus request.
When someone wants that I go with a no distribution meter main or a meter socket back to back with a CH-CH main breaker panel.

 

[Yodaman]

unless the contract says to pull out all the old branch lines, a svc upgrade would normally mean bringing all the old branch lines into the new panel.

Are you sure the copper branch lines were not stolen? Still have your plumbing?

 

[***]

Please clarify. You hired him to install a 200A service with a copper bus and copper service conductors. Was this new panel to be connected to anything or was it supposed to be changed over in stages?

4/0 is almost certainly aluminum.

I can't imagine a good reason to demo branch circuits in the house.

The new panel was to be installed, nothing else. Since the house is vacant the electrical repairs were to be done in stages as the money became available.

I was very specific about the cooper buss and ser wire. I was aware that it cost more, so was he, because he told me he didn't even know if that was available anymore. I had no trouble finding it but it would need to be shipped in.

The branch circuits were two wire no ground, so maybe he felt that they were dangerous. But as the branch circuits weren't connected to the breaker box they shouldn't have been a problem, in fact the only breakers in the breaker box are the main disconnect and one breaker that he installed to service the outside outlet needed to update for code.

Since the breaker box is next to the meter socket why would he need 45' of service wire? I know its not for the grounding rods as he also billed for 17' bare cooper wire.

This seems unreal, but he is a little (lot) arrogant. AS I said in the original post I'm looking for insight. I will call him and ask about these issues but I'm trying to get some understanding so that I don't lose my temper with him.

 

[Msradell]

How much did you pay them for all of this great "Service Work" he did for you? Hopefully you didn't pay them much yet and you still owe him quite a bit. He destroyed a lot of your home without permission that wasn't part of his scope of work. Do you have a contract with him saying what he was supposed to do?

 

[Arrow3030]

Well 45' of service wire is standard. 3 cuts 15' each. If it's 45' of SER cable then you can gripe

 

[Know A Little]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but copper for large service conductors when you are discussing operating on a budget is a waste IMO.


1. Did you ever meet with him in person?
2. Do you have a contract spelling out what was to be done?
3. Is there a permit?
4. Have you paid him fully?

Seems someone in this mix was not very smart, for him to do what the other electrician said required extra work. Unless he miscommunicated to his employee about the scope of the work. Or he is just a dumb azz.

 

[***]

Well 45' of service wire is standard. 3 cuts 15' each. If it's 45' of SER cable then you can gripe

The bill states quantity 45 4/0 service wire at $1.65 per unit. I'm assuming feet, it couldn't be inches could it?

 

[***]

unless the contract says to pull out all the old branch lines, a svc upgrade would normally mean bringing all the old branch lines into the new panel.

Are you sure the copper branch lines were not stolen? Still have your plumbing?

Nope the plumbing is still there and so are all the construction supplies and tools.

 

[gregzoll]

It's unusual for aluminum to be used for a service drop/lateral in my region. We are required to use 2" RMC for a 200A service drop. What is unusual is a copper bus request.
When someone wants that I go with a no distribution meter main or a meter socket back to back with a CH-CH main breaker panel.

Aluminum is what is and has always been used for drops from transformer to meter to panel. That is because Copper tends to be really expensive for larger diameters and is heavier.

AL has and will always be used for high voltage drops forever.

 

[circuitman]

the price of the wire sounds like aluminum at that price, defintely not copper!like others said hope you have is in writing. he had no reason to disturb any thing else , i would ask why? if he can't answer i would find someone else!:surprise::surprise::surprise:

 

[Scout10]

scope of work in writing, and no pay till inspected.

 

[***]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but copper for large service conductors when you are discussing operating on a budget is a waste IMO.


1. Did you ever meet with him in person?
2. Do you have a contract spelling out what was to be done?
3. Is there a permit?
4. Have you paid him fully?

Seems someone in this mix was not very smart, for him to do what the other electrician said required extra work. Unless he miscommunicated to his employee about the scope of the work. Or he is just a dumb azz.

I've never met him in person, I live out of state. He may have know my parents I cann't be sure. There was no contract but there was a permit and yes I've paid in full.
That only leaves what I'm going to do about it now. My husband told me to report the cooper wire stolen and file a police report. I don't want to do that unless I'm positive this was not a mistake that he will make right or if it was deliberate to force me to rewire the whole house which he believes is in my best interest.

 

[Yodaman]

Regarding 45' of wire. It may be close from your panel to your meter, but how far from the meter to the top of the whether-head? This is the point where the utility will tie into your line.

Also, anyone who says you need to tear out all the drywall to re-wire a house probably has a brother in the drywall business. It's not required.

 

[Arrow3030]

Greg, how often do you think an inside wire man changes the drop from the riser to the transformer?

 

[Arrow3030]

Greg, how often do you think an inside wire man changes the drop from the riser to the transformer?

Never mind. I meant to say service entrance conductors rather than service drop. My apologies

 

[psgama]

I did my shop service conductors in copper, but only because I had some free scraps laying around at work. Otherwise I would have used aluminum. I used aluminum from the shop to the house underground though.

 

[gregzoll]

Greg, how often do you think an inside wire man changes the drop from the riser to the transformer?

You would be really surprised with some of the shady characters out there that state that they are licensed, but are just handymen and pull what the OP is going through.

Look at the fact that you have daredevil Meth Heads, who are willing to risk their life, to take the overhead drops for cash.