[Boydrone]

Hello all,
I moved into a home that has some insulation issues throughout the house, including HVAC issues that I'm working on nailing down. I managed to borrow a thermal imaging camera from work yesterday and took a lot of photos and measurements of my home and the temperature swings. turns out the corners of the bedrooms are pretty bad... anyways, what I was actually curious about was the inside wall temperature and what it should ACTUALLY be vs. what I was measuring.

The ceilings seemed really bad to me and I think I need to get the attic re-insulated or get rid of the feathered insulation in there and get it redone.

The walls did pose an issue as well, but I suspect after this investigation that the ceiling/attic is the culprit. Can anybody tell me what the standard temperature differential should be vs the outside temps?

I can post some photos tonight if need be, it may help things along.

 

[Bud9051]

IR pictures can be tricky. I own a FLIR and use it for energy audits, but most of the time I have my blower door running to depressurize the house and I limit it to cold seasons.

The tops of exterior walls and corners as you noticed are always bad. But the fix can be difficult (often no extra space) and doubtful you would feel a difference.

The way to approach energy improvements is to first identify the worst of the bad areas. That's where improvements are going to be more likely to make a difference.

From experience, the worst and often the easiest to improve is air leakage. That blower door gives me a reading corresponding to all of the leaks in the house and it can point me in the direction of the larger leaks.

Start with an energy evaluation, even a DIY will tell you a lot. Things like air sealing that attic floor before you bury it in more insulation are important.

Post some pictures, there are several here who love to comment on them, myself included.

Bud

 

[Boydrone]

Hi Bud, thanks for the advice. I think I'll try to track down the major air leak first before getting a quote for more insulation in the attic then.

let me know what you think of the attached first. I took quite a bit of photos, so I had to select some just to get the ball rolling.

the photos named, sophias room, is my daughters ceiling which I think requires more insulation, BUT, there is also one corner that seems VERY hot, as you'll notice too I'm sure. One thing I know is that the mortar just outside of this problem corner is cracking and falling apart a bit and needs to be redone, I'm just not sure if the insulation was damaged due to the mortar issues being present for longer than I know. not sure.... never know with exterior walls until you tear down the drywall, right?

secondly, you'll notice the photos named, laundry wall, there is definitely an air leak in this channel between these studs. I think the air leak is coming from the basement since the basement was finished by the previous owner.

If you have any hints for tracking down these issues, I'd really appreciate it. any ways of finding the root cause of the air leaks? from the second floor or the basement?

 

[Bud9051]

I don't see the labels on the rooms so I'll just reference them from top to bottom.

1st picture, I assume there is a hanging light or something creating a shadow just below the center dot??

Third picture looks like some insulation out of place or an air leak.

4th and 5th pictures are possible air leaks or missing insulation.

But here is where the preparation comes in. What were the inside and outside temperatures? You need a temperature difference for the camera to see and to create a natural air flow, called stack effect. Or you turn on all exhaust fans, bath, kitchen, dryer, and even add a window fan or two if you have them. This will take the house more negative and increase the air leakage. Be sure all combustion appliances are off when forcing the house into a negative pressure. More details on that available as backdrafting is dangerous.

Now, my bad, but I had to convert to Fahrenheit as my mind just does not do so automatically. 18° C to 30° C is 64° F to 86° F. Although the pictures look impressive, that range is modest so most of what you see is normal.

Here is a link on air sealing: https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/TBC_Guide_062507.pdf

Later
Bud

 

[Boydrone]

Hi Bud, thanks for the quick response. This was late last night, so I kind of fumbled with the pictures, I thought at least the photos would have been labelled... haha
you guessed right though, the first 3 above are from my daughters room
the two others were the air leak

the outside temperature that day was 28C outside, inside temp (room temp), was 26C. I don't blame you for having to convert, I always have to as well.

so overall, you're saying that the ceiling temperature is fine and there doesn't seem to be much of an issue with the attic insulation?
the third photo from the top, highlighting the corner of her room, showing a maximum of 30.8C, doesn't that look like there is some imbalance in the insulation in the attic in that corner? Maybe I need to get back up there and distribute the insulation a little more evenly. I could have shifted due to high winds or something I guess.

regarding the air leak you're seeing in the two last photos, believe it or not, thats an interior wall! I suspect that the previous owner didnt seal the HVAC system after cutting into it to add ducting or something like that. But unfortunately, that area from the basement is all drywalled, and its difficult to see whats actually going on up there without some disassembly.

Really, at this point, I'm wondering if it would be beneficial at all to get the attic re-blown. I dont want to call up a contractor to get a quote since they will almost always suggest that it needs to be done just to make some money, you know?

 

[Bud9051]

It's called being in business and making money, they will always find something to sell you. That's why I stayed (before retiring) an independent energy auditor, nothing to sell.

Made notes while i read: You can set the camera to F° if you are like me J.
Winds can move insulation near the soffits and they make baffles with tails to prevent the wind washing effect.
A quick check back and don't recall you saying just how much insulation is up there??
Leaks in any heating or cooling ducts outside of the conditioned space are a double loss in that any loss or gain from duct pressures has to be balanced somewhere else with the same gain or loss.


Quick summary, air seal is always good and is something that needs to be done first.
If you have 6" or less insulation in the attic currently, taking that up to a foot or more with proper baffles and good attic venting is usually a good measure. But the sir sealing is important. I can see a hot spot around what I think is an electrical box indicating air leakage.


Got interrupted and lost my train of thought. Have to run, will catch up later.


Bud

 

[Boydrone]

Next time I borrow the unit, I can definitely change the settings to F. I was surprised that the screen captures didnt have hidden data that you can use their software with. but I guess they have limitations as well.

I'll have to measure the depth of the current insulation soon. I should be able to do this tonight.

regarding the electrical box you're seeing. is it on the ceiling? if so, thats the light fixture. You may be right that there is a leak there.

another thing to note: this room has only one return air duct, and its low to the ground, about 1.5ft from the ground. I was even thinking about moving up near the top to get some more air flow in that room, but I dont want to mess with the HVAC if its going to hurt the system.

 

[Bud9051]

Not sure what model FLIR you were using, but with mine there is more data contained with the picture IF I download it using their software. That would allow me to adjust temperature ranges for best image. However, if I download it as a JPG into my image files it is just a picture and the extra data is lost.

When I have cold air leaking in I get a cold signature. When warm air is leaking out, I get a warn signature at the leak, like around an electrical box. It is less distinctive than a point of cold air infiltration. We are headed into the wrong time of year, but if you do borrow the camera again, late night or very early mornings may still give you some 40 or 50 degree temps outside.

Balancing the hvac system, supply and return, is important but comes last after air sealing and insulation. Any ducts that you can access need to be sealed as well. Foil tape or duct mastic (messy).

Bud

 

[Gary in WA]

IMO, stop all air leaks now, before you get the camera again... canned foam in attic the ceiling/wall drywall as the leak is between the top plate and drywall where the joint is only paper tape covered thinly with joint compound- not 1/2" drywall, a good air barrier. Older houses the wood framing pulls away from the drywall creating air infiltration/exfiltration pathways. Go in the basement check around plumbing/wiring runs through the subfloor, same as attic but reversed. Use a smoke match near the baseboards/window/door trim for air leaks, pull a receptacle cover to check if the box is caulked or a gap around it 1/8" x box = 1" square hole in the wall. Check exterior at the cold area for a light/switch or other that may not be caulked under the trim ring/plate/cover letting air in/out. 7*F spread but I thought the ceiling should be closer to the same unless less insulation is there- or an air leak from below behind the drywall.

Gary

 

[Boydrone]

That's great feedback Gary! Once you read up on everyone's experiences here, you begin to realize how poorly houses are built these days. I've never even heard of caulking around outlets to air seal that area. It makes logical sense once you say it, but I've never thought of it.

Your spray foam idea may work out in the problem area where the wall meets the ceiling. I'll definitely be heading into the attic sometime this weekend. One other issue I've mentioned that may be a contributing factor is the mortar cracking and falling apart a bit on the outside of this room. It may actually help in that I can spray foam with a long tube in those areas unless there is plywood separating the inside insulation and brick layer.

I suspect most of the thermal losses aren't due to air leaks in that room though. If I had to guess, there are some insulation issues with the room, and potential air flow problems with some poor HVAC design integration. We do have the HVAC leak in the basement which I believe is contributing to the temperature issues in that room as well.

Overall, I think this is a good path forward before I start taking some additional scans. (the new scans will be in Fahrenheit and Celsius

 

[Gary in WA]

Great, sounds as if you have a plan. Just don't foam any of the mortar/brick as that should have an air space between it and the sheathing- to allow for drainage of moisture, with your WRB between them.

Gary

 

[Boydrone]

Hey guys, in case you're following this. Here is the depth of the insulation in the attic. I didn't have enough time to get in there and check the are above my daughter's room, but st least you can see the depth first.