[ajdepaul]

We hired a local reputable company to install duraceramic tile in a floating fashion over our existing hardwood in our home. We chose, upon the advice of the dealer, the floating installation so as not to destroy the hardwood underneath because we wanted to have the ability to someday pull the tile up and keep the wood for resale value. Also, with the unstable substructure and movement of individual wood planks which are 2", the tile would be best to float (as described by the owner of the company who we went with). Well the other day we called them because of buckling in the tiles between two rooms and hair line cracking in the grout all over the 1600 sq ft area. When they came to fix we discovered that they glued down the tile to our hardwood throughout the install. Now, not only is our tile floor compromised and the grout issue will most likely get worse but our hardwood underneath is damaged and I don't even know if it is salvageable. What should I do with this? The owner knows he screwed up as we had a contract in writing for floating installation and said he would be in contact but I don't even know what I should ask for when we do talk.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[rusty baker]

I would consult with an attorney. That could be an expensive fix.

 

[Bud Cline]

First of all let me ask...

HOW does one install Duraceramic in a floating floor fashion? Tell me how it is done because I don't know and I have been installing Duraceramic since the stuff hit the streets.

Then also tell me how one installs Duraceramic directly over a hardwood floor without first using an underlayment because I also don't have an answer to that question.

Then (thirdly) tell me what it is that makes this company a "reputable" company because even using my vivid imagination I can't answer that question either.

Man am I dumb!

 

[ajdepaul]

First of all thanks for the response.

There is a product from congoleum called Underflor with one O. That allows it to float. We did research to see if it was correct that you can float it and we found you could. Also the dealer said he did many installs with it.
The company subbed out the install and as I found out this group that did our floors was not their typical subs. They were overflow due to how busy they were at the time.

I am at a loss on this. I'm sure they will try to offer some kind of contract that says they will fix the wood if we tear it up but that might be 15 years down the road. Who knows if they will be in business. I feel like the only real way to fix this is to tear it up, fix the wood now and relay the tile properly but I don't want the construction and dust in my house right now.

 

[ajdepaul]

Oh and to your second question they literally spread adhesive on the hardwood and just laid the tile on it.

 

[Bud Cline]

I have never heard of the system you talk about (Underflor) so it's news to me.

I doubt you are going to salvage the wood floor. The adhesive used for the Duraceramic is a high-powered contact adhesive and it's going to be a helluva mess getting all of that very aggressive adhesive off of the old wood and out of the cracks in the wood. I personally think your finished but others here may have different ideas, I didn't know what Underflor was.

Typically you wouldn't install Duraceramic directly over a hardwood floor without first installing a sheet-type underlayment of plywood to my knowledge. Not sure what Congoleum has to say about it.

We'll see what Rusty thinks beyond calling a lawyer.

 

[rusty baker]

Bud, you know far more about this stuff than me.

 

[Bud Cline]

Bud, you know far more about this stuff than me.

I know I hate the stuff and I know it does not perform as advertised, and I know when failures begin Congoleum isn't exactly Johnny-on-the-spot to stand behind it as their warranty would suggest.

But those aren't the issues here. I think the whole bunch in this case should be sued right down to the very last guy that was there.:yes:

 

[rusty baker]

I would imagine the hardwood will need to be replaced.

 

[ben's plumbing]

sorry to here of you problem...this is why I don"t use sub contractors we have been remodeling for 30 yrs and as bud said never install duraceramic over a wood floor with out some kind underlayment 1st...may i suggest that they lift there work at there cost....you have the wood floor refinished at there cost....then have a flooring company install your floor at there cost.....if they don"t agree call a lawyer and come to terms...again sorry you have to deal with this type of workmenship........ just a thougth are they the contractor insured????

 

[Bud Cline]

I have to admit that I have learned something today. I looked up the "Underflor" system and that is unbelievable. It is nothing more that a plastic coated paper that is loose-laid on the dry floor and then Duraceramic is glued to the paper. Disgraceful.

I had no idea such a technique even existed.:no:

 

[ben's plumbing]

hey bud I have to agree again found the same information on underflor never to old to learn.just to old to agree.ben

 

[ajdepaul]

The Underflor was more like a vinyl than a paper. Glad I can contribute some type of info albeit bad product info. I wish I would have consulted this forum before we did it.

What's done is done though. I really don't want to bring this to court if I don't have to. We like the look of the floor, the feel of the floor, etc... Just stinks that our wood is ruined.

 

[ajdepaul]

And that the grout is cracking... Not going to get better I am assuming.

 

[Bud Cline]

In one respect the problem is the concrete in the Congoleum exhibit. Concrete is never plane. It can't be. The installation techniques and state-of-the-art equipment available today still isn't good enough to plane the concrete floor. In any case the plane would have to be perfect for the tiles to lay flat on the [paper/plastic] Underflor.

In the case of the OP, the hardwood will move and disrupt the grout. The Duraceramic grout is somewhat flexible but non-the-less the wood expands and contracts enough to tear the grout away from the tiles. This is where I would have used plywood to unitize the hardwood and stopped the movement. But of course that would also ruin the hardwood in this case but the Duraceramic would be in tact. Truth is the hardwood shouldn't be there at all.

It's hard to honestly discuss any of this without being critical of the OP's installation and for that I apologize. I can promise you that even had the Duraceramic been installed over the Underflor product and the Duraceramic would have "floated" over the moving hardwood there would still have been enough movement to disrupt the installation simply because the hardwood moves in all directions and not all slats move at the same time. There are many many demonstrations out there in the flooring world that prove the sellers just don't get it. You wouldn't think flooring would be that technical but in reality all floor covering is.

 

[ajdepaul]

You know what is really messed up? I originally went to the dealer with the intention of ripping the wood out. I commented that it was a shame to tear out the wood and I wish I could keep it and he suggested the floating floor. It sounds like that should never have been an option.

 

[Bud Cline]

It's amazing. Believe it or not I see these local flooring store operators eat tens of thousands of dollars worth of mistakes every year. It amazes me how they stay in business. And it is all because they are so greedy they had rather eat a few jobs and swap that for speed and extra sales rather than learn about the products and proper installation techniques and the science of all this crap. :yes:
Damn the customers full speed ahead.

 

[ajdepaul]

OK. So here is what the owner of the company is proposing. I can't tell if this is good or bad or what I should ask.

Regarding your floors: based on what I now know, the installation was not done according to our agreement and as a result, I will need to make an adjustment to you for the costs involved with the underlayment and the refinishing of the floors. Please note: If this were a single layer strip floor, it would have required an underlayment in order to meet the manufacturer's installation recommendations. That being said, direct glue down installation is an acceptable installation over a double layer floor so I will provide you a written lifetime warranty which will include grout maintenance on this floor. In addition, I will give you a refund for the cost of refinishing your hardwood floors or I will offer a coupon to you that will entitle you to have your floors refinished at a later date. One other point that is noteworthy; one of the rubs on floating floors is the increased grout maintenance. We generally recommend a direct adhesive installation method because it is more stable. In your case you wanted to preserve the hardwood flooring so a floating floor made more sense, but to be fair, a floating floor would have caused at least as much grout maintenance.

Help is once again greatly appreciated

 

[Bud Cline]

I assume based on the manner in which you have presented the stores comments here that you have received those comments in writing, is that correct? If so, enshrine those documents.

Since the new floor is already failing I think right now is the time to have this guy take out the new floor and re-finish the old floor. I personally doubt it can be done. But to accept an IOU for a future repair from this outfit is going to leave you standing at the gate when the bell sounds.

Get it all fixed here and now and be made whole again and then after that if you want to install another new floor you will be much wiser.

 

[rusty baker]

That warranty won't be worth much when this guy goes out of business.