[PikeoftheLake]

Hi folks,

First time on this forum so I appreciate your help.

I would like to install smart light switches but there was never a neutral wire run in my house. I opened the panel and I think I know where I need to install the wire. I have circled it below, is this correct?

So if this is where I install this single wire I have a question or two:

• Can I just install the single 14 guage wire in one of those screws and then run it to the box in the wall?
• Is this the wire that I want: https://www.homedepot.ca/product/southwire-t90-14-awg-150m-solid-electrical-wire-white/1001155194
• Anything else to know?

Many thanks for your help.

 

[spitz1234]

So your light switch box has no neutral? I believe they make no neutral smart switches. No sure exactly what your plan is

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[chandler48]

You have neutrals run throughout your house, as evidenced by the white wires. The only problem is that the power enters the fixtures rather than the switch boxes. The electricians used a switch loop to energize and control the lights, making no neutral at the switches apparent.

No you can't run a single wire outside the casing of the cable. It must be contained in the sheathing. It would be best to search for a smart switch that doesn't require a neutral. Today's codes require xx-3 cables run from fixtures to switches with the white wire capped off for such a use as yours.

 

[jbfan]

I can't answer for our northern neighbors, but you can't do that in the states.

 

[daveb1]

I can't answer for our northern neighbors, but you can't do that in the states.

Running separate neutrals is not allowed in Canada either.

 

[PikeoftheLake]

Okay, just dumbing this down like I'm 5.

I have a black wire, white wire and the bare ground wire going directly to the panel. For the smart switch my neutral wire is just the white wire?

Just as long as there is no fixture between my main switch and power source I'm good?

 

[PikeoftheLake]

You have neutrals run throughout your house, as evidenced by the white wires. The only problem is that the power enters the fixtures rather than the switch boxes. The electricians used a switch loop to energize and control the lights, making no neutral at the switches apparent.

No you can't run a single wire outside the casing of the cable. It must be contained in the sheathing. It would be best to search for a smart switch that doesn't require a neutral. Today's codes require xx-3 cables run from fixtures to switches with the white wire capped off for such a use as yours.

Sorry, I should have quoted your post:

Okay, just dumbing this down like I'm 5.

I have a black wire, white wire and the bare ground wire going directly to the panel. For the smart switch my neutral wire is just the white wire?

Just as long as there is no fixture between my main switch and power source I'm good?

 

[chandler48]

OK, power comes from your panel via the black wire attached to the breaker. It is returned via the white neutral wire. Those wires go to the light fixture in the ceiling. If you had no switch, the light would stay on all the time because there is no control. Installing a switch loop, incorporating the white (taped black) and black wires to the switch make and break the connection allowing you to control your light. There is NO neutral at the switch if all you have is two wires.

 

[HotRodx10]

I have a black wire, white wire and the bare ground wire going directly to the panel.

Only if you're sure the white is a neutral that goes to the panel. Is the white connected to the switch? If so, it's not a neutral; it's a switched hot wire.

 

[dcwired]

You need a no neutral dimmer or replace the cable from light to dimmer with 3 conductor.

 

[PikeoftheLake]

You have neutrals run throughout your house, as evidenced by the white wires. The only problem is that the power enters the fixtures rather than the switch boxes. The electricians used a switch loop to energize and control the lights, making no neutral at the switches apparent.

No you can't run a single wire outside the casing of the cable. It must be contained in the sheathing. It would be best to search for a smart switch that doesn't require a neutral. Today's codes require xx-3 cables run from fixtures to switches with the white wire capped off for such a use as yours.

OK, power comes from your panel via the black wire attached to the breaker. It is returned via the white neutral wire. Those wires go to the light fixture in the ceiling. If you had no switch, the light would stay on all the time because there is no control. Installing a switch loop, incorporating the white (taped black) and black wires to the switch make and break the connection allowing you to control your light. There is NO neutral at the switch if all you have is two wires.

View attachment 735097

Only if you're sure the white is a neutral that goes to the panel. Is the white connected to the switch? If so, it's not a neutral; it's a switched hot wire.

Thanks.

I will install it exactly like this:

This is for the Kasa 3 way dimmer. In this diagram I'm only seeing black/white/ground coming from power source.

This is so confusing because I'm used to opening the box and seeing 2 or 3 neutral wires connected together. I would then connect all my white wires together and that would be my neutral, I think.

So for this install should I only need my white/black and ground going back to the panel?

 

[dcwired]

Don't worry about the wire from panel. It likely goes several places before the light such as receptacles. You have the neutral at the light already. Light to switch is your only concern.
You may possibly can run a cable from a nearby receptacle to switch.

 

[PikeoftheLake]

Don't worry about the wire from panel. It likely goes several places before the light such as receptacles. You have the neutral at the light already. Light to switch is your only concern.
You may possibly can run a cable from a nearby receptacle to switch.

Okay, many thanks.

At this point, I think I will try to get an electrician in to help me with this. I would really like to get these TP-Link units in, instead of the Casetas.

 

[joed]

Just note that all white wires are not neutrals. An electrician will be able to figure this out easily.

 

[C'est Moi]

I want to know where all these DIY guys get the software to draw such nice diagrams.

 

[chandler48]

I want to know where all these DIY guys get the software to draw such nice diagrams.

Yeah, mine look like a 3 year old with dull crayons and a fidgety hand.

 

[GrayHair]

I want to know where all these DIY guys get the software to draw such nice diagrams.

I dare say most are borrowed from PDFs and other sites. I've done a few on my own with photos and paintdotnet and it is tedious.

EDIT: Added link.

 

[joed]

I want to know where all these DIY guys get the software to draw such nice diagrams.

Most of mine start with a drawing from somewhere and modify it with paint. I have so many now I often have one to match the need.
I often copy the OPs image and then modify with paint.

 

[chandler48]

I often copy the OPs image and then modify with paint.

I try that, but it copies in an incorrect format, not JPG or PNG. I can't recall, but it doesn't let you post it after it is modified.

 

[seharper]

Okay, just dumbing this down like I'm 5.

"Hire... an... electrician"

Seriously OP, you are "bouncing off the walls" here because you are way, way, way out of your depth.

I mean it's not monstrously hard, but it's like if someone handed you a Piper Cub airplane and said "have fun". Very docile and novice-friendly airplane. You can jab at it by trial and error and get it moving down the runway and lifted off, but in the next 4 hours you ARE going to die LOL.

You've got a smart switch and your brain said "This is a consumer product meant to be DIY'ed. Surely that MUST mean it will be super easy to install" and so you're expecting a low difficulty level.

Well, no. There are at least 2 different ways to wire a plain switch and 5 ways to wire a 3-way switch. You don't even have the vocabulary to say which one you have... and there are lots of complications you can run into.

So yeah. Flight school bruh.

I have a black wire, white wire and the bare ground wire going directly to the panel. For the smart switch my neutral wire is just the white wire?

Not necessarily. All cables are made either black-white, or black-white-red. That reflects how the cables are manufactured, it provides no indication whatsoever of the actual function of those wires. Code requires very minimal markings, but those are usually ignored, and in any case only inform people with basic skills in place. So one of those "complications" is recognizing a mis-marked switch loop.

Thanks.

I will install it exactly like this:

NO. Don't install anything "exactly" like anything. You have to identify what you have, and then see which method is applicable. No replacement for that.

I want to know where all these DIY guys get the software to draw such nice diagrams.

Most of them are copying pro diagrams made by a manufacturer. However Adobe Illustrator does a bang-up job of making an amateur drawing look semi-pro. I'm sure there are open-source alternatives.