[westgrove]

Hi all,

I have a hot tub that requires a 50-60 amp GFCI power supply. The hot tub is located about 25' from the swimming pool sub-panel. he swimming
pool sub-panel is fed by a 50 amp breaker on the home's main panel. Since the main panel has no open slots and the pool sub-panel is closer, I would like to connect the hot tub to the pool's open slots in the sub-panel. The sub-panel has a 240v 20 amp breaker feeding the pool's pumps and a 110v 15 amp breaker feeding the blower.

I first thought that I would get a Connecticut Electric GFCI Load Center http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Spa-Disconnect-GFCI-Load-Center-240V---30A-to-60A-P9279C193.aspx ,install a 50 amp breaker in the pool's sub-panel, run 4 wire #6 AWG THHN in conduit 3' to the new GFCI Load Center, then run 4 wire #6 AWG THHN in conduit about 25' to the hot tub.

I was just about set on this plan when I re-read the installation instructions for this unit that said that if the unit was equipped with an integrated GFCI (see PDF http://www.hydroquip.com/Owners Manuals/AIR/DELUXE/Electrical_Installation.pdf ). This made me think that I may be able to install a standard 50 amp breaker in the pool's sub-panel and run the 4 wire #6 AWG THHN in conduit about 25' to the hot tub utilizing the integrated GFCI.

So my question(s) is/are this:

Is my original plan ok to add a 50 amp GFCI sub-panel off of the 50 amp pool sub-panel to feed the hot tub?

Would the second thought of no connecticut electric load center work running direct to the control unit with integrated GFCI?

Are both plans off the mark? Are either ok?

What do you suggest?

 

[Glennsparky]

No good. You don't have enough power (amps) at the pool panel. You will overload the circuit.

If the pool panel is fed through conduit and not cable, it may be easiest to pull new wires to the pool panel through the existing conduit. Please answer all these questions.
What is the amp rating of the pool panel?
What is the voltage and horsepower of the pool pumps?
What is the horsepower of the blower?
What else is fed/will be fed in the future, from the pool panel?
What size conduit goes from main panel to pool panel?
What type conduit?
What exactly is the nameplate rating of the spa?(50 or 60 amps isn't specific enough.)

Not necessary, but of interest, is what size and type of wires feed the pool panel now?

BTW, a GFCI breaker can go right in a pool panel. The connecticut electric load center is not necessary. But it may be cheaper. Allowable breakers are listed inside a panel's cover.

 

[Glennsparky]

I was just about set on this plan when I re-read the installation instructions for this unit that said that if the unit was equipped with an integrated GFCI (see PDF http://www.hydroquip.com/Owners Manuals/AIR/DELUXE/Electrical_Installation.pdf ). This made me think that I may be able to install a standard 50 amp breaker in the pool's sub-panel and run the 4 wire #6 AWG THHN in conduit about 25' to the hot tub utilizing the integrated GFCI.

Yes. If the spa has an integrated GFCI a standard breaker is fine. However, no spa over 20 amps has ever had integrated GFCI. So I'm 99% sure you are going to need a GFCI breaker.

 

[J. V.]

I suggest you have a professional take a look. It is entirely possible you can use the existing sub panel. You don't size a panel by adding up the breaker totals.

 

[westgrove]

Thanks for the feedback. What a great site!

To correct my origianl post, the control unit for the hot tub indicates 40 amps at 240 v on the label (I attached a picture).

I will work on the list of question that you have and reply on those tonight. Regarding the integrated GFCI, I opened the control panel inside the tub and there actually is a GFCI wired in. Im not sure I trust it, but its there.

 

[Glennsparky]

Holey crap! A GFCI! BTW, great pictures, westgrove. The GFCI has a test button. When you have power, press the test button. If it shuts off the whole spa then you can trust it.

Hydroquip just makes control boxes and parts. The specs on the picture are the maximum that control box can handle. And with a total of 56A that could require a 60 or 70 amp feed, but I doubt it. So here's your chance to amaze me again. There should be another name plate from the mfg who actually built your spa. It should have the real ampacity of your unit. If it's not there we can use the max. Or you could crawl inside the access cover and get me the volt and horsepower of every motor, and volts and amps, or volts and watts of every other piece of equipment.

 

[westgrove]

Im in my office today and not near the hot tub but I got lucky and happened to have those pictures on my phone. I have a couple more of the pump motors (both the same). Beyond that, I think the only other items that run on the tub are one light and an ozonator. I'll get more info for you when I get home, in the meantime, here are the pump pictures.

 

[westgrove]

I forgot about the heater. Ill get info on that tonight as well.

 

[tribe_fan]

Wont he still need a disconnect within a certain min and max distance - but in sight of the spa?

 

[westgrove]

Ok. I attached pictures of the pool pump, the sub-panel, and the blower for the pool. The pool lighting is fed from the house's main panel so besides the token 110 outlet next to the sub-panel, I believe that these are the only items drawing from the sub-panel. So i think I can answer your questions now:

What is the amp rating of the pool panel? 50 amp (there is no main breaker on the sub panel, just the 50 amp breaker in the main panel that feeds it
What is the voltage and horsepower of the pool pumps? 1 pump 230v 1.5 hp.
What is the horsepower of the blower? 240v 1.6 hp.
What else is fed/will be fed in the future, from the pool panel? Just a 110 outlet. Nothing else would be fed from this panel in the future.
What size conduit goes from main panel to pool panel? Looks like 1"
What type conduit? PVC
What exactly is the nameplate rating of the spa? I cant find anything else that shows other ratings than what is on the control panel

 

[westgrove]

For clarification, this sub-panel for the pool is about 25' from the location of the hot tub and within line of site.

 

[westgrove]

Sorry for the barrage of posts but I forgot about the heater on the hot tub. I looked all over the heating unit, which is an inline model, and there are no labels of any kind that indicate the amps and/or voltage.

 

[Glennsparky]

...What is the amp rating of the pool panel? 50 amp (there is no main breaker on the sub panel, just the 50 amp breaker in the main panel that feeds it

Sorry, that's not what I meant. Look at the label inside the front cover of the pool panel. The maximum amperage for that panel is written on the label.

...What is the horsepower of the blower? 240v 1.6 hp.

I thought you said the blower was on a 120V breaker.

These pictures aren't as good as your others. I can't enlarge them to read the specs.

Gotta go. I'll do the math tomorrow.

 

[westgrove]

Sorry, I think that I must have saved them as smaller files. Here they are again. You should be able to read all the labels now.

Sorry about my call on the 120v breaker for the blower. I mis-remembered. Try these pics:

 

[frenchelectrican]

Sorry for the barrage of posts but I forgot about the heater on the hot tub. I looked all over the heating unit, which is an inline model, and there are no labels of any kind that indicate the amps and/or voltage.

Most of the spa in USA side typically use 5.5 KW heater that useally set up for 240 volt useage. ( there were few case that they do use 120 volt verison but the wattage will be much lower )

The actual amparage will be between 22 to 24 amp depending on the system voltage but again there some will use larger heating element and some use smaller but this will give you a ballpark and I did noticed in the bleuprints it did mention 5.5 KW element there so it should be correct.

Merci,
Marc

 

[westgrove]

Thanks Marc. I didnt see that on the schematic. it does look like the heater is 5.5kw

 

[Glennsparky]

You lucky dog! The wire you need will fit in 1" PVC and your pool panel is robust enough, rated max. 125 amps.

Spa
Pump 1 (x 1.25, largest motor). 11.25A
Pump 2 9A
Heater 22.91A
Ozonator (guess) .02A
Controller (guess) 1A
Total 44.18A

pool
pump(table 430.248 x 1.25, continuous) 12.5A
blower (table 430.248) 10A
Light 2.5A
Grand total 69.18A

You missed #6 copper wire by a couple of amps but it could have been much worse.

Your two hots are #4 copper wire THWN. Neutral is #8 THWN insulated white, ground is #8 THWN insulated green (for pools).

This #4 feed is rated for 85A. You can protect it with a 70, 80 or 90A double pole breaker.

Your spa run can be #8 THWN for the two hots and #10 THWN white for neutral, #10 THWN green for ground. Breaker 50A double pole.

For this purpose all wires must be copper and listed THWN or better.

 

[frenchelectrican]

You lucky dog! The wire you need will fit in 1" PVC and your pool panel is robust enough, rated max. 125 amps.

Spa
Pump 1 (x 1.25, largest motor). 11.25A
Pump 2 9A
Heater 22.91A
Ozonator (guess) .02A
Controller (guess) 1A
Total 44.18A

pool
pump(table 430.248 x 1.25, continuous) 12.5A
blower (table 430.248) 10A
Light 2.5A
Grand total 69.18A

You missed #6 copper wire by a couple of amps but it could have been much worse.

Your two hots are #4 copper wire THWN. Neutral is #8 THWN insulated white, ground is #8 THWN insulated green (for pools).

This #4 feed is rated for 85A. You can protect it with a 70, 80 or 90A double pole breaker.

Your spa run can be #8 THWN for the two hots and #10 THWN white for neutral, #10 THWN green for ground. Breaker 50A double pole.

For this purpose all wires must be copper and listed THWN or better.

Glennsparky.,

For spa ground conductor that part you have to be carefull with it due some manufacter will required a full sized conductor the same as ungrounded conductors so if that spa have manufacter instruction or details ya have to follow it espcally if they mention ground conductor size there.

Most spa I useally deal in USA side typically use either #8 or #6 AWG depending on what the instruction called for. but over here in France it is mantory 16mm2 ( 6AWG ) for all ground conductors for spas.

Merci,
Marc

 

[westgrove]

You lucky dog! The wire you need will fit in 1" PVC and your pool panel is robust enough, rated max. 125 amps.

Spa
Pump 1 (x 1.25, largest motor). 11.25A
Pump 2 9A
Heater 22.91A
Ozonator (guess) .02A
Controller (guess) 1A
Total 44.18A

pool
pump(table 430.248 x 1.25, continuous) 12.5A
blower (table 430.248) 10A
Light 2.5A
Grand total 69.18A

You missed #6 copper wire by a couple of amps but it could have been much worse.

Your two hots are #4 copper wire THWN. Neutral is #8 THWN insulated white, ground is #8 THWN insulated green (for pools).

This #4 feed is rated for 85A. You can protect it with a 70, 80 or 90A double pole breaker.

Your spa run can be #8 THWN for the two hots and #10 THWN white for neutral, #10 THWN green for ground. Breaker 50A double pole.

For this purpose all wires must be copper and listed THWN or better.

Ok. Thanks for taking the time to review my situation and provide the feedback. So if I understand correctly, I need to verify the wire size that feeds the sub panel from the main panel. if the wire size is adequate, I can install a 50 amp breaker into the sub panel and run THWN wire (I'm thinking about just going #6 for all 4 wires) in new conduit to the hot tub.

Am I on track here?

Would it hurt to make the 50 amp breaker a gfci? Would that be an issue since there is a gfci in the control unit of the tub as well? Maybe I should hook it up with a standard breaker then test the integrated gfci before spending the $100+ for the gfci.

 

[Glennsparky]

...Am I on track here?

Yeah, sure. There's no way you've got #4 in there. 8 or maybe 6.

Would it hurt to make the 50 amp breaker a gfci? Would that be an issue since there is a gfci in the control unit of the tub as well? Maybe I should hook it up with a standard breaker then test the integrated gfci before spending the $100+ for the gfci.

It's not much of a problem. You'll just never know which one popped, but it's a short walk.