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Hot Tub Install
I'm getting ready to run electric to a Hot Tub, and I need some advice, as I've never done this before.
The Spa is a Marquis Reward Coastal Series, and from the specs, it's rated at 240V and 30 or 50amps. Q: Why the difference in amps if it's 240v only?
My plans, so far, are to run 6/2 UF from a 50a breaker in the Main Panel to a Spa50 UG412RMW250P Disconnect (Home Depot $49.), then to the tub.
The specs, from http://www.marquisspas.com/ are:
I've done some research, and I'm concerned about proper grounding/bonding. I read something about equipotential bonding being required, but I'm not sure if that's different from a standard GEC. Can someone explain this for me, and tell me if there's a way I can avoid this, if it's diffferent from simply running a ground from the tub to the panel via the 6/3 w/g? I'm thinking it has to do with whether or not the Hot Tub is sitting on a concrete slab, or some other type of underlayment. Can the tub sit directly in the yard? Can it be located immediately outside of the patio door concrete? What if it's rested on a wooden block?
I also read, and not sure if it was sarcasm, about the water itself being bonded. If this is so, it's totally over my head. WTH??
The Spa is a Marquis Reward Coastal Series, and from the specs, it's rated at 240V and 30 or 50amps. Q: Why the difference in amps if it's 240v only?
My plans, so far, are to run 6/2 UF from a 50a breaker in the Main Panel to a Spa50 UG412RMW250P Disconnect (Home Depot $49.), then to the tub.
The specs, from http://www.marquisspas.com/ are:
Spa
Dimensions
84"x84"
35.5"H
34" Deep35.5"H
Electrical
Required
240V
30 or 50 ampWeight
Dry/Full
720/
3388 lbs.Therapy
Pump(s)
2 dual-speed
56 frameWater
Capacity
320
gallonsI've done some research, and I'm concerned about proper grounding/bonding. I read something about equipotential bonding being required, but I'm not sure if that's different from a standard GEC. Can someone explain this for me, and tell me if there's a way I can avoid this, if it's diffferent from simply running a ground from the tub to the panel via the 6/3 w/g? I'm thinking it has to do with whether or not the Hot Tub is sitting on a concrete slab, or some other type of underlayment. Can the tub sit directly in the yard? Can it be located immediately outside of the patio door concrete? What if it's rested on a wooden block?
I also read, and not sure if it was sarcasm, about the water itself being bonded. If this is so, it's totally over my head. WTH??
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
That is pretty good listing however most of the stuff will not meet the codé et you denfinely need netural bring out to the spa disconnect GFCI breaker { I did look up the model number and Oui you have GFCI breaker in there so you will need netural to get the GFCI to function so there is other issue with spa appaction The 6-2 or 6-3 UF will NOT fly in spa area it have to be in conduit with insluated ground conductor.
If you did read the whole NEC art 660 ( IIRC ) that will cover it very well and you can NOT miss that.
For your model number the reason why dual amparage rating due it have small or larger heating element so I willl size the conductor to the highest load due you may need extra heating power anyway.
For bonding the water in spa that should be allready taken care of it due your inline heater will be bonded so it should not be a issue { you may want to double check to make sure }
For the rest details I will wait until you make plans where to put the spa and if you going to pour cement pad or use wood decking or other means there are few diffrent leigt metholds to do this and for the equipotential bonding the conductor size have to be #6 bare copper AFAIK.
And the other thing I will give you a head up make sure you are aware with Uility system like POCO drop or phone cable or CATV drop if they are overhead if Underground it maybe ok but not for power there is specfic rules on that so just keep in your mind when you pick a location.
There may be a addtional local codés may show up as well so check it out with your inspector they may have more details to cover with it.
Merci,
Marc
If you did read the whole NEC art 660 ( IIRC ) that will cover it very well and you can NOT miss that.
For your model number the reason why dual amparage rating due it have small or larger heating element so I willl size the conductor to the highest load due you may need extra heating power anyway.
For bonding the water in spa that should be allready taken care of it due your inline heater will be bonded so it should not be a issue { you may want to double check to make sure }
For the rest details I will wait until you make plans where to put the spa and if you going to pour cement pad or use wood decking or other means there are few diffrent leigt metholds to do this and for the equipotential bonding the conductor size have to be #6 bare copper AFAIK.
And the other thing I will give you a head up make sure you are aware with Uility system like POCO drop or phone cable or CATV drop if they are overhead if Underground it maybe ok but not for power there is specfic rules on that so just keep in your mind when you pick a location.
There may be a addtional local codés may show up as well so check it out with your inspector they may have more details to cover with it.
Merci,
Marc
Type UF cable cannot be used to feed your hot tub. The wiring method needs an insualted grounding conductor. You will need to use some sort of conduit and individual conductors in the proper sizes and colors.
The ampacity difference might be with reduced or no heater.
The ampacity difference might be with reduced or no heater.
Jim, is it not allowable to use romex through the building and then transition to a conduit system exiting the building?Type UF cable cannot be used to feed your hot tub. The wiring method needs an insualted grounding conductor. You will need to use some sort of conduit and individual conductors in the proper sizes and colors.
The ampacity difference might be with reduced or no heater.
Yes, for the interior portions. When the OP said UF I was assuming outside since UF would not usually be used inside due to cost and harder to work with.
Jim et. al, I was planning on Sched 80 PVC underground for the UF. Would that be OK for the UF, or do I need to get THWN with insulated ground. I DID read about the ground being insulated, but the Code does say that the outer sheath can be used to as the insulation:
"Interior wiring for outdoor spas or hot tubs—Any wiring method, which is outlined in a previous chapter of the NEC, containing a copper equipment grounding (bonding) conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG is permitted for the connection to motor, heating and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub, or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly."
"Interior wiring for outdoor spas or hot tubs—Any wiring method, which is outlined in a previous chapter of the NEC, containing a copper equipment grounding (bonding) conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG is permitted for the connection to motor, heating and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub, or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly."
As far as the indoor wiring, all that will consist of is running the wiring a few feet through an LB next to the meter to the inside of the Service Panel.
Marc, This is one of the details I need from you guys.For the rest details I will wait until you make plans where to put the spa and if you going to pour cement pad or use wood decking or other means there are few diffrent leigt metholds to do this and for the equipotential bonding the conductor size have to be #6 bare copper AFAIK.
1. May the tub sit on the concrete part of the patio right outside the sliding door, or are there space requirements for the perimeter of the tub?
2. If I move it further away and place it on a concrete slab, is there extra bonding required (a la eqipotential bonding)?
3. Are there other (non-conducting) underlayments available for these installs? Non-conducting pads, etc.?
Once outside the ground needs to be insulated. Inside it only needs to be covered.
In the conduit you will need THWN conductors.
IIRC the tub will need the grid either in the dirt under wooden pavers or patio blocks. The grid would need to tie into the slab and any conductive surface near the tub.
In the conduit you will need THWN conductors.
IIRC the tub will need the grid either in the dirt under wooden pavers or patio blocks. The grid would need to tie into the slab and any conductive surface near the tub.
interior wiring!jim et. Al, i was planning on sched 80 pvc underground for the uf. Would that be ok for the uf, or do i need to get thwn with insulated ground. I did read about the ground being insulated, but the code does say that the outer sheath can be used to as the insulation:
"interior wiring for outdoor spas or hot tubs—any wiring method, which is outlined in a previous chapter of the nec, containing a copper equipment grounding (bonding) conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 awg is permitted for the connection to motor, heating and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub, or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly."
Jim,IIRC the tub will need the grid either in the dirt under wooden pavers or patio blocks. The grid would need to tie into the slab and any conductive surface near the tub.
Please tell me what's the grid?
I was referring to the equipotential grid or wire around or under the hot tub. Some editions of the code required a grid, some just a #8 buried around the perimeter.
OK, so a #8 bare? Do I dig a trench around the perimeter of the tub? How deep should this wire be buried? Does this wire attach to the tub; where?I was referring to the equipotential grid or wire around or under the hot tub. Some editions of the code required a grid, some just a #8 buried around the perimeter.
Jim Port did cover that details pretty clear and you can not miss that by that much. it is a direct answer from NEC codé.Marc, This is one of the details I need from you guys.
1. May the tub sit on the concrete part of the patio right outside the sliding door, or are there space requirements for the perimeter of the tub?
2. If I move it further away and place it on a concrete slab, is there extra bonding required (a la eqipotential bonding)?
3. Are there other (non-conducting) underlayments available for these installs? Non-conducting pads, etc.?
To bury #8 bare you only need to go about a foot or so depending on the local codés may crop up your plan. I know in Wisconsin will ask for #6 instead of #8 { it will not fly in Wisconsin. }
If you have not pour a concrete deck then get a rebar that is 20 foot length and find a corner to stub up that will be your bonding point this is genrally the best. for bonding et grounding purpose{ that will be simaur subject but will discuss that other time }
To order to attach the equiplane conductor you will land it the same spot as you bring in insluated grounding conductor. { genrally at the spa disconnect panel is good location }
And I did took a peek of your drawing if you going to run the conduit all the way to the panel then you will have to use the THHN/THWN conductors that is the only way you can be legit with this set up. I do not know why you found say #12 AWG that is way too small for this purpose so therefore you may run into a snag if not carefull so I will suggest to stay with #6 as you have with the other conductors { black et red et white et green }
For the disconnect switch it can not be more than 5 feet away from nearest edge of the spa { I am not sure if the local code may have some leeway to give you more distance but I rather keep it close as possble }
Now the instering twist if you have metal patio door., belive or not you have to bond it as well if all wood or plastique framed then you will not have to worry about it.
For the exsting GFCI receptale on the other side of paito door IMO it pretty right on the edge on codé wise. so keep in your mind the inspector may say something diffrent but as long you have in use cover you are fine but plain jane flipper type no it will not fly { this part the inspector will look for it,}
If more question just holler one of us will answer asap.
Merci,
Marc
I think Marc meant the disconnect had to be at least 5' away.
NEC issued a TIA on this.
Tentative Interim Amendment
NFPA 70
®
National Electrical Code
®
2011 Edition
Reference:
680.42(B)
TIA 11-1
(SC 11-3-10/TIA Log #1005)
Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued
the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70
the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70
®, National Electrical Code®, 2011 edition. The TIA was processed by Panel
17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011,
with an effective date of March 21, 2011.
A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is
interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the
next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.
17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011,
with an effective date of March 21, 2011.
A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is
interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the
next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.
1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding.
Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade
.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009,
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009,
Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.
Issue Date:
March 1, 2011
Effective Date:
March 21, 2011
(Note: For further information on NFPA Codes and Standards, please see
www.nfpa.org/codelist)
Copyright © 2011 All Rights Reserved
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