[Pat the Rat]

My son is looking at a home that was built in 1880. It is an estate sale going for $45k, which is very cheap here in PA. It's 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 1500 square feet. it has many new windows, but needs just about everything. We were lucky enough to see it before anyone else and he's very interested. We know it will need rewired and upgraded to 200amp service (old ungrounded knob and tube). Will need a new furnace and oil tank (not sure if gas is available there). The basement isn't very large. Just big enough for a furnace and oil tank, and a few shelves. The other side is a crawl space with stacked stone foundation. I think that can use some work, but it doesn't seem to be sagging at all. Not sure what we'd be getting into there. I'm also concerned since it's so old there's probably no insulation in the walls. It's a 2 story with a very large attic, large enough to make a nice studio or something out of, but i noticed there was no insulation up there. I'm not sure how bad it will to heat the house and if insulation can be retrofit somehow. Can it be blown into the walls effectively? We'd be effectively gutting the place and putting new drywall up as the plaster walls look pretty rough. He's 30 (and i'm 60) and i'd help him restore the house. I can do a lot of things like plumbing, electrical, and siding. Anyone have any experience with such an old home? it was lived in until last year by the same family forever till the mother had to go into a nursing home.

 

[Nealtw]

I would be all over it, but up here a lots is worth 350K and a gutted house would be worth about 40K to rebuild.

If you are removing plaster for drywall then you make the walls thicker and add insulation at the same time.

Basements in those houses were never meant to be finished and should stay unfinished. Usually to costly to get them water tight.

 

[Clydy]

Do not skimp on the inspection from your local repair company. You never know what problems are hidden in the old house...

 

[HandyAndyInNC]

Do not remove any plaster unless you replace it with plaster. Do not tear off the plaster to replace it with sheetrock. Sheetrock has paper on it. And rodents, ants and vermon and even mold and mildew love damp paper to eat. Nothing eats plaster. You do not need insulation in the walls. A plaster wall will provide more than an R-2 or R-3 that you would get with insulation. Insulate the attic and basement. Remove the trim around the windows and ensure that area is sealed up well. I know the installers did not do that. I do not like the fact about new windows. The originals were much better, and lasted until some fool was too lazy to repair them. I know sure as the world is round that they purchased the cheapest ones they could find. A nice quality wood window window is much better than plastic. Think about it. The windows in the house where I am sitting are 130 years old this year. They have lasted this long with no maintenance in a good 40 or 50 years. New plastic windows have a life of approx 8 years if they are of high quality. I rebuilt all the windows and doors the first year we were here. New bronze weather strips, new brass chains for the weights, planed the surfaces true again. New hinges for all the doors. Some fool painted a few of the windows closed. Do not put plastic siding on the house. Do not try to seal it air tight, the structure was not designed to be that way. It MUST breathe. Live in it for a few months to see what to work on as the priority. You will find things like some structure that needs attention before other things. Simple enough to do. For the mechanicals, HVAC would be my bet to replace first, plumbing and then electrical. Provided that the structure is solid and sound. Also that the roof and gutters is in good condition. Do the gutters take water away from the structure. Is the ground sloped away from the house. If not, start with the roof. No need in working on anything inside if you allow the outside to come in. We use the high velocity hvac forced air components. Love them because they are quiet and the ducts are small. I do recommend hard ducts, not flexible.

We have a few houses of that age and older, we love them. They are all still original except for modern mechanicals. I have done all the work myself with hired hands to help. I grew up in a victorian house. I will never again live in a new house. They are so cheap.

 

[Pat the Rat]

The house has already had vinyl siding installed. It needs replaced, though. it is a weird style I've never seen before and would be impossible to match. The back porch was torn down at some point and the bare wood is exposed. looks like it's been that way a long time. Not sure what to replace it with if not vinyl. I have heard not to insulate the walls as that will seriously kill the house with moisture in the walls. it does need insulation in the attic and floor joists and rims. A bunch of the windows were replaced with vinyl. Not sure the brand, but i have Anderson vinyl windows that are pretty good. We had problems with condensation ruining the wood windows i had before (Crestline). So they're good for that reason, but yeah, I agree if i had the old fashioned windows I would just repair them. They don't make them that well anymore it seems. what about repairing the stacked stone foundation on the crawl space? tough to do? i imagine there are probably snakes under there. i shudder to think what might be crawling around in the crawl space.

 

[Pat the Rat]

Here is the house listing. We're going to look at it again with the realtor in about an hour. Someone supposedly was going to look at it last night too, but they were going to hold bids till we saw it with the realtor. i think it will go fast at that price. https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/184-Gorton-Rd_Moshannon_PA_16859_M39543-59423
btw, one photo is the stairs sideways. took me a while to figure that out. i thought it was just some weird room. haha. The front of the house looks crooked in the photo, but it's really not. One of the supports on the right side of the porch is falling over. looks like it's just some cinder blocks cemented together for a support. We'd have to fix that and make sure the porch is level.

 

[Pat the Rat]

if we put in a bid we will certainly make it contingent on a home inspection, barring any major problems.

 

[3onthetree]

If your son already lives in/near this town population of 281, and looking for a forever home, needs to start low but can build the cash over time to improve it, that is one viewpoint.

A situation other than that you should look at what you will have. It has been listed for ~2 years, no sell. Take with a grain of salt their marketing push that "someone just looked last night and they are holding bids until you look at it." It is a rural area so things move slower, but $45K seems high (assessed ~$60K) looking at the work needed to put in. Can you do that to be equal or under the compared neighbors valued around $60K, and could you have the amenities (garage, lot size, etc) to equal neighbors valued ~$95K.

There's a reason for so few pics, lots of neglect. So lots of rotted wood outside, lots of paneling inside surely covering deteriorated plaster walls. Probably rotted floors in the bathroom covered by carpet. I see very little old millwork, or all the former old glory has been removed. Lead paint? May have had asbestos flooring added in the 50s+ in rooms.

A big issue is the foundation. Is it sinking without footings? Is the main cellar brick, which has deteriorated? What I see in many old houses is back when it was built, it was one of few houses on the street and the foundation was fine and current technology. But with 100+ years of neglecting rainwater, deteriorated mortar, and sometimes newer construction around it changing the water flow, foundations are in disrepair, and that's expensive/difficult to fix.

There's usually potential in any house. But can both of you handle maybe a couple years of your planned gutting and starting from scratch before moving in? Or is he going to live in it with a day job, so some adjustments from what he is probably used to (like not throwing lots of modern appliances - toaster oven, window A/C, gaming computer, etc - onto a K&T circuit)? Patience for far trips to the box store, or getting an HVAC installer or concrete guy to come out, or fixing the probably mangled structure here and there from years of hacking it up?

 

[Pat the Rat]

After taking another close look (for about an hour), we decided against it. Just too much work. None of the plumbing ran through the outside walls. electrical outlets were run to the floor and not thru the walls either. since there was such a small basement, there was no access to run plumbing and electricity under the floor. You'd have to cut access thru the top of the floor to run them. Wondered if maybe with no wall insulation that the water pipes might freeze and break in winter. It would be worth the price for just the lot, but you'd have to tear down the house and rebuild. Son decided to maybe spend a bit more and get something he can live in while working on it. I couldn't figure out how i could get a decent bathroom out of it either. The main one on the 2nd floor was about 4'x6'. just a standup shower, commode and small sink. The one on the main floor was right where i'd want to open the wall (like it was originally) to make room for a dining area. Just a lot wrong with the layout that would be too hard to solve I guess. We decided to pass on it.

 

[Pat the Rat]

thanks for all the advice. it may apply to another house we look at in the future.

 

[Bud9051]

I had already typed up my reply advising you to run, so no need to post. Gut jobs require very deep pockets and lots of experienced DIY work.

And banks do not like home owners gutting their houses.

Bud

 

[LS-6]

If you can post some pics of this old house. :wink2:

 

[ron45]

Don't walk away, RUN.

Unless you can tear that down and put a new home.

The whole house is leaning.

No need to look at the rest of it.

 

[DoomsDave]

That poor house looked a bit like it was fixing to tip over all by itself.

Having messed with 1890s vintage properties (just once) running, if not screaming en route, was wise.
@Pat the Rat, do keep us apprized of your son's search!

 

[Pat the Rat]

The photo is a bit deceiving. It'a pretty straight house, but the porch supports are leaning. that's the only problem in that regard. they're just a wall of cinder blocks holding up the porch but probably just built on the ground with no footer. Probably not too hard to fix right.
Photos were posted in the earlier link to the listing. I told my son it would be better to just tear the house down because the lot would be worth $40k. hard to find around here. I shudder at what the cost of tearing it down and hauling it away would be, though. could be cost prohibitive to pay for that kind of tonnage. Anyone have any idea? $20k to tear it down and move it away? Just guessing.