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TakeCareMyHouse
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87 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

I just went to take a shower and when I turned the handle you see attached below (or, at least, where the handle was), something broke. Then, when I tried to turn the water off, nothing happened! The water just keeps comint out. The only way I can turn the water off is to turn the water to the house off, which is the state the house is in now.

I tried to turn that rod in "TubPlate.jpg" but nothing seems to happen.

How can I turn the water off to the bathtub until I can get a plumber to come out?

The other figures show the parts that I took off. The hand

And then I can turn the water to the house back on.

Nothing looks obviously wrong with the parts that came out of the handle. I can retake other/more pictures if needed.
 

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retired framer
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44,266 Posts
Pull the face plate off the wall, if you are luck you might have a model with the screws on the side that you can turn off.

 

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retired framer
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When the flat surface of the brass spline is down the faucet is in the off position.

 

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TakeCareMyHouse
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87 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
That video was excellent! Home Depot does not have the faucet handle so I am going to have to wait for that to come in.

For now, though, the goal is to get the bathtub in an "OFF" position so I can turn the house water back on.

I did make a trip and got the parts of the video.

It appears I do not have the piece in the pix above. Can the cartridge still be used to shut the bathtub water off?

For now, I still have not yet extracted the old Moens 1222 cartridge. But, as in the pix attached, I think I do have the tub in the "OFF" position. From the video, notch down, tub should be off.

Would you agree that the bathtub is OFF? I don't want to turn the water on to the house unless I am sure.

Suppose there is a problem with the old Moens and, even though I have it in the OFF position, could water still come out?

Should I take the next step and put the new cartridge in? If the new cartridge goes in, I feel I should I get it into the OFF position, even though I can't get the actual handle for a few days, yet.

This is a huge help.
 

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Super Moderator
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6,337 Posts
I agree with you and the video, the cartridge notch is down and in the off position. As long as you have not removed any retainer clips or disassembled the cartridge in any way the cartridge should not come out.

Are you sure there isn't any other isolation valves for the shower in the basement etc.? Look closely, sometimes there are isolation valves/manifolds on the supply lines going to bathrooms etc.
 

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retired framer
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If the cartridge comes out I would change it. that does look like it is in the off position.
If you ave removed that little keeper put it back in befor you turn on the water.
 

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TakeCareMyHouse
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87 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I put the retainer clip back in. From the photos, does it look right? It doesn't fit any other way. It seems tight, but I don't want to push it.

This tub is on the first floor; its a one story house. No basement. I think all my supply lines are inside the walls. Just to be sure, I went into the attic, but could not see anything obvious.

I think I am going to have wait until I get another person, one person to turn the water on outside and one on the inside, connected by phone. I have to be absolutely sure water can't get in that hole; otherwise I have no way to get the water out.
 

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retired framer
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I put the retainer clip back in. From the photos, does it look right? It doesn't fit any other way. It seems tight, but I don't want to push it.

This tub is on the first floor; its a one story house. No basement. I think all my supply lines are inside the walls. Just to be sure, I went into the attic, but could not see anything obvious.

I think I am going to have wait until I get another person, one person to turn the water on outside and one on the inside, connected by phone. I have to be absolutely sure water can't get in that hole; otherwise I have no way to get the water out.
Bottom legs of that clip fit into holes in the bottom of the pipe. In the video he just lined it up with his finger as he pushed the clip down.
 

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TakeCareMyHouse
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87 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Okay, I got the retainer pin In.

"TopView.jpg" and "BottomView.jpg" show the top and bottom views of the retainer pin now.

Should this bathtub outlet now be trusted to be OFF when I turn the house water supply back on, now that I have, I believe, but awaiting confirmation here, that the retainer pin is correctly put back in place?

Also, what is the correct terminology for the main section that houses the moen cartridge and attaches to the pipes inside the walls? What is this thing called just to be clear when I talk about as needed?

Putting the retainer pin back in like how it was supposed to go was hard. I had a hard time wiggling its legs back into the hole they were supposed to go into. The hole was a little forward, the legs a little back, and the pin being metal is hard to push/pull on. That is what the third picture is about. Is there a special tool for retainer pins that makes flexing these legs easier so they get in the hole they should?

I'd also like to replace the Retainer Pin, now that I have it out, essentially. Is this a universal part? The Moen Cartridge 1222 was, can I expect the same that I can get an exact Retainer Pin, but new, of what I have now?

Sorry I proceed so slowly, but, if I hadn't asked some of these questions like this, I am sure that there were three or four steps where water would have come out everywhere by now. I learned a long time ago to be patient and never assume if you haven't done it before, which has certainly saved me some crucial mistakes here.
 

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retired framer
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Yes that looks good, I would just turn the water on a little so you can run and check before cranking it open.
 

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The day before yesterday I was visiting my elderly parents. My dad mentioned that his bathroom sink faucet handle was getting a bit hard to pull open, and I suggested that we replace the cartridge, as he usually keeps a few extras on hand. I shut the water off below the sink and removed the retainer clip, pulled out the old cartridge and installed the new one. The retainer clip slid in perfectly and I thought I was gonna be done. Turns out the cartridge was upside down, and the hot and cold water were backwards, so I took the retainer clip back out, removed the new cartridge and flipped it 180 degrees and reinstalled it. Tried to get the retainer clip in for at least 5 minutes but it wouldn't seat properly. I finally got it by slightly turning the cartridge just a bit. Don't know why these things can be so difficult to get back in.

The name you're looking for is valve body.
 

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Forgot to mention it, but occasionally the cartridge will be stuck in the valve body, especially if it's been there for many years. Happened to my dad. I tried on four separate occasions to remove it, even using a cartridge puller, and all I managed to do was pull the guts out of the cartridge while the body stayed put. He ended up calling a plumber who managed to remove it and replace it with a new one but he was not able to watch to see exactly what he did.
 

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TakeCareMyHouse
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87 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Ok, I'll be all ready to go. Found someone to help me tomorrow where they turn on the water, (a little at first, good idea) I stay at the bathtub, connected by phones, so I don't have to run back and forth from the house supply water to the bathtub while water is going.

One last question, and why didn't I think of it before: is there any kind of temporary tube I can fit on the cartridge opening that the water would go into when I turn the house water on? I attached a sketch of what I am trying to say. If there is such a tube/hose/sleeve, etc. it could direct any unwanted water from the valve body/cartridge down into the tub, and then down the drain.

Oh also, how universal is the retaining pin? Across all brands? Just to Moen? Just to the type of faucet I have?
 

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As far as I know Moen is the only brand that uses a retainer clip like that.
The reason you had difficulty getting the retainer clip back in is because you did not have the cartridge seated completely.

The reason you did not have the cartridge seated properly is because you installed it with the stem in the closed position.
Recognize that you have the cartridge (that's the entire thing). It fits inside the valve body. Inside the cartridge is the stem, that's the part that you turn to turn the water on and off. The cartridge does not move.
So you put the cartridge in the valve body. There are seals on the outside of the cartridge that make a air and water seal tight seal between the valve body and the cartridge.

With the cartridge remove there is air and often water inside the valve body. To push the cartridge completely into the valve body you must compress the air which is very difficult and you will not compress any water that is in the valve. You cannot compress water.



Now if you install the cartridge with the stem in the open position, any air or water in the valve body can come out of the spout as you push the cartridge in.


With the cartridge completely and properly seated the retaining clip will easily slip into place.


You have no reason for concern about the cartridge coming out. Even with the clip only partially install the cartridge cannot come out. It is physically impossible.


Turn the water back on.
 

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One last question, and why didn't I think of it before: is there any kind of temporary tube I can fit on the cartridge opening that the water would go into when I turn the house water on? I attached a sketch of what I am trying to say. If there is such a tube/hose/sleeve, etc. it could direct any unwanted water from the valve body/cartridge down into the tub, and then down the drain.
*************************************************
Form a funnel / trough / canal , placed under the mechanism, using heavy duty aluminum foil to direct un-wanted water.
 

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TakeCareMyHouse
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87 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Hi all,

I think I got it! I put the flashlight on where the valve body is housed and I didn't see any water. Not even a drip. I waited several minutes just to make sure. The faucet handle turns light as a feather. Big difference from how its been lately.

Just a few last minutes things to check off.

The cartridge was the problem; it was broken. No matter how I turned the old cartridge, it would not stop water from flowing. Actually, the handle, key hole, stop tube appear to be just fine. I didn't even to bother to buy new ones as Home Depot didn't have my model and I didn't want to go through customer service on Moen as my faucet, plate, etc don't have any obvious part numbers---be tough to communicate what I need over the phone.

Should I put caulking around the tub plate? I won't if I don't need it. If you feel it does matter, let me know, and I will do it. The plate feels snug against the wall.

If I did miss something and there is some leakage, where would it manifest itself?

Anything else I should check that I should?
 

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Super Moderator
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Nice job. Glad you got it working right now.

Up to you on the caulk. Some do some don't. I put a clear silicone around the base. Easily removable with a sharp knife for future repairs if needed. Just my opinion.
 

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Check the back side of the escutcheon plate. Should have foam gasket and therefore not need caulking.
 

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I usually caulk mine but leave about an inch without caulk at the six o'clock position. Acts like a weep hole if needed.
 
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