[dami0101]

My wife and I just bought our first house, a 1950's rambler in the Minneapolis metro area. One of the first projects we would like checked off our list of things to upgrade is the electrical, currently the majority of the outlets are two prong and there is no GFCI in the bathroom. When we had our home inspection the inspector said that since they used metal boxes and metal conduit to run the wire from the breakers to the receptacles, we could replace the receptacles with 3 prong grounded and screw a grounding wire from the receptacle to the back of the box and that would ground the outlet.

The sellers also contacted an electrician to get a quote for replacing the receptacles and the electrician came back at $2,500 and so the sellers are unwilling to cover the costs of the upgrade. On the quote the electrician states:
Ground all electrical outlets in house:
All Ivory devices
-Due to the electrical cable installed in the home it cannot be grounded. We can however install grounded 3 prong outlets legally by also providing arc fault and GFCI protection. This additional protection will meet code requirements to keep the home and residents safe.

Sub panel:
-We will provide a new sub panel to accommodate the arc fault breakers needed to properly safeguard the homes electrical system. This includes the new sub panel and all breakers needed to comply with state and local codes.

For that price, the sellers are unwilling to cover the cost and thus it would fall on us. My question is if what the inspector said was true, or if we really need to pay to have the electrician do what he quoted. Also, does the quote mean I'm "simply" getting a new breaker box with AFCI breakers and now wiring is being pulled through the house?

 

[rjniles]

If the house is truly wired with metal conduit and boxes you have a valid ground. You could replace the receptacles with self grounding receptacles. You can use GFCIs in the kitchen and bath. Check with your local electrical inspector to find out if the are any local amendments that would not allow this. Ask if you are required to upgrade to AFCI.

 

[mm11]

I would be a lot more likely to put my faith in the electrician's report that the house is wired in cable, than the home inspector's assessment that the house is run in conduit. Home inspectors usually have extremely minimal knowledge of electrical systems.

 

[Daniel Holzman]

In my experience, it is very unusual for a home inspector to offer an unsolicited opinion on the possibility of grounding ungrounded receptacles by making electrical modifications to the house. Many inspectors are member of ASHI (American Society of Home Inspectors), and the the ASHI manual specifically prohibits inspectors from offering opnions on topics they lack expertise in, which usually includes structural, electricial or plumbing modifications to a house. The inspector is usually paid a relatively small amount of money (a few hundred dollars in many cases) to report on the bare minimum, such as what works and what does not work, but not why it does not work, whether the problem is serious, and what should be done to fix it. Your inspector went way out of bounds in this case.

As to whether the conduit that you may or may not have is code compliant for grounding, that is a call for the local wiring inspector. I have conduit in my house near the furnace that is there to protect the wires, but is not suitable for grounding. Not all conduit is correctly attached or is suitable for grounding, I would hire a local licensed electrician to prepare a bid to ground the house if that is what you are interested in.

 

[Know A Little]

Dami0101

Post a picture of your panel. from a distance so we can see if the wiring is BX or conduit.

 

[psgama]

I would trust your electrician. Once a permit is pulled, the areas of the house that are modified have to be brought to the current code. Unfortunately, your upgrading the receptacles everywhere, so they must be upgraded to AFCI. If the electrician is planning on using a new sub panel for your AFCI's that would get pricy, as they will have to replace the feed to every receptacle branch circuit.

Depending on the layout of the house, BX could be pulled from the existing panel (if it doesn't exist already) to the first receptacle, and a AFCI \ GFI combo receptacle might be able to be installed that will protect the rest of the receptacles on that branch circuit. Ask for a quote on that option and check with another electrician as well.
I

 

[dami0101]

Re: Grounding ungrounded outlets

In my experience, it is very unusual for a home inspector to offer an unsolicited opinion on the possibility of grounding ungrounded receptacles by making electrical modifications to the house. Many inspectors are member of ASHI (American Society of Home Inspectors), and the the ASHI manual specifically prohibits inspectors from offering opnions on topics they lack expertise in, which usually includes structural, electricial or plumbing modifications to a house. The inspector is usually paid a relatively small amount of money (a few hundred dollars in many cases) to report on the bare minimum, such as what works and what does not work, but not why it does not work, whether the problem is serious, and what should be done to fix it. Your inspector went way out of bounds in this case.

As to whether the conduit that you may or may not have is code compliant for grounding, that is a call for the local wiring inspector. I have conduit in my house near the furnace that is there to protect the wires, but is not suitable for grounding. Not all conduit is correctly attached or is suitable for grounding, I would hire a local licensed electrician to prepare a bid to ground the house if that is what you are interested in.

Yeah, I wasn't sure how knowledgeable your average home inspector is and that's why I wanted to double check what he had told us.

The seller did the part of getting the quote from a licensed electrician, that's how we got the total of $2,500 for a new panel, Arc Fault breakers, and changing the receptacles.

 

[dami0101]

Dami0101

Post a picture of your panel. from a distance so we can see if the wiring is BX or conduit.

Unfortunately we don't close for another month so it will be awhile before I can get in and take pictures, but I'll post them when I can.

 

[dami0101]

I would trust your electrician. Once a permit is pulled, the areas of the house that are modified have to be brought to the current code. Unfortunately, your upgrading the receptacles everywhere, so they must be upgraded to AFCI. If the electrician is planning on using a new sub panel for your AFCI's that would get pricy, as they will have to replace the feed to every receptacle branch circuit.

Depending on the layout of the house, BX could be pulled from the existing panel (if it doesn't exist already) to the first receptacle, and a AFCI \ GFI combo receptacle might be able to be installed that will protect the rest of the receptacles on that branch circuit. Ask for a quote on that option and check with another electrician as well.
I

We'll certainly have anther electrician in to look at it, when our realtor saw the quote he contacted his electrician who said the pricing sounded about right, so at this point it seems to be a question of if that's the best way to go. But like I said in a previous post, we don't close for another month, so we are basically just left to sit here and wonder.

 

[jimn]

There is no requirement that anything be upgraded . The house would be grandfathered unless some modifications are made then that portion of the system would have to be upgraded . So the seller is quite correct in not paying for it. The electrical proposed a valid method of giving you ground outlets . I am not a pro but I believe in the US you can no longer use conduit as a ground . You have to run a ground wire.

 

[Luke M]

The cheapest NEC-compliant modification would be to use a dual function GFCI/AFCI receptacle on the first receptacle of each (receptacle feeding) circuit. And replace all the other receptacles with ordinary 3 prongs. No AFCI breakers required, or new wiring.

 

[Oso954]

I like the electrician's plan.

I think the idea of getting most if not all of the circuits out of the 60+/- year old panel and into a new one with new breakers is a good idea. Depending on the panels mfg and the condition of it, it might be a great idea.

You are updating the overcurrent protection in addition to adding the AFCI and GFCI protection.

 

[Jim Port]

Metallic conduit is a valid NEC grounding means. A separate ground conductor is not needed, but can be used.

 

[MrElectricianTV]

My wife and I just bought our first house, a 1950's rambler in the Minneapolis metro area. One of the first projects we would like checked off our list of things to upgrade is the electrical, currently the majority of the outlets are two prong and there is no GFCI in the bathroom. When we had our home inspection the inspector said that since they used metal boxes and metal conduit to run the wire from the breakers to the receptacles, we could replace the receptacles with 3 prong grounded and screw a grounding wire from the receptacle to the back of the box and that would ground the outlet.

The sellers also contacted an electrician to get a quote for replacing the receptacles and the electrician came back at $2,500 and so the sellers are unwilling to cover the costs of the upgrade. On the quote the electrician states:
Ground all electrical outlets in house:
All Ivory devices
-Due to the electrical cable installed in the home it cannot be grounded. We can however install grounded 3 prong outlets legally by also providing arc fault and GFCI protection. This additional protection will meet code requirements to keep the home and residents safe.

Sub panel:
-We will provide a new sub panel to accommodate the arc fault breakers needed to properly safeguard the homes electrical system. This includes the new sub panel and all breakers needed to comply with state and local codes.

For that price, the sellers are unwilling to cover the cost and thus it would fall on us. My question is if what the inspector said was true, or if we really need to pay to have the electrician do what he quoted. Also, does the quote mean I'm "simply" getting a new breaker box with AFCI breakers and now wiring is being pulled through the house?

How about posting some pictures so we can see for ourselves?

 

[dami0101]

ok so I as able to get into the house tonight and took the below photos. The outlets in the kitchen are 3 prong as well as 2 in the living room, 1 in the bathroom, and 1 in two of the 3 bedrooms. I was not able to take to cover off and remove the receptacle to see what was going on inside the box. It seems odd to me that some of the outlets appear to be grounded but then that the electrician would say the system couldn't be grounded and instead would need a new panel and AFCI breakers.

 

[Jim Port]

If the flexible metal cable has a thin bond strip in it it is a valid grounding means.

 

[MrElectricianTV]

If the flexible metal cable has a thin bond strip in it it is a valid grounding means.

I recently met with an electrical inspector on a job, an old house with different types of BX cable throughout. I was concerned about the grounding because the homeowner wanted all of the two prong receptacles changed. The inspector said that if the metal armor is in good condition and all clamps and connectors are tight and it tests positive for ground, then it is an acceptable ground. I mentioned about requiring the thin bonding strip and he said it didn't matter although it is a better ground.

I also asked about installing GFI receptacles where there was no ground. He said that the only acceptable place to put a GFI receptacle where there is no ground is at the first outlet location on the circuit. Wherever I had no ground, I rewired, because the old black junction boxes were rusted and the type of BX connectors used had ordinary flat nuts instead of locknuts. I replaced the boxes as well.