DIY Home Improvement Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I had my safety inspector do a walk through the other day at work, and he is telling me that I have to have a GFCI for the coke machine, refer., and microwaves in our breakroom. Basicaly he said every recep. should be GFCI protected.

Is this right?

Sorry if I am asking a question that has been beat to death. I did do a search, but didn't really find what I was looking for.

Thanks,
Rickey
 

·
Licensed electrician
Joined
·
13,503 Posts
Under the 2008 NEC the following locations would need GFI protection for personnel; Bathrooms, Kitchens, Rooftops, Outdoors, and if the receptacle was within 6' of the outside edge of a sink.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
630 Posts
Commercial occupancies. Per 210.8, you must install GFCI protection for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in bathrooms, rooftops, and kitchens in commercial/industrial facilities.
 

·
DIY'r
Joined
·
520 Posts
Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.

-- New for 2008 NEC. (If that's applicable in your area).

IMO the microwaves are not permanent*, so it's not a kitchen. (Do you even have a sink in there?) But I guess that's open to interpretation.

*Edit: Err, unless they are permanently mounted/built in, of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the replys guys.

I guess the refer compressor kicking on, isn't enough of a fluctuation to cause the GFCI to trip?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
A Safety Inspector is usually not the same as a County/City Electrical inspector.
Your employer and or insurance company may have much more strict requirements than the NEC.

You could ask your Safety Inspector to show you the Code he is quoting from. They usually like to be respected as a Teacher.

NEC Art. 90.4 Enforcement.
This Code is intended to be suitable
for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including
signaling and communications systems, and for use by
insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for
enforcement of the
Code has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of
equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission
contemplated in a number of the rules.
By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction
may waive specific requirements in this
Code or permit
alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives
can be achieved by establishing and maintaining
effective safety.
This
Code may require new products, constructions, or
materials that may not yet be available at the time the
Code

is adopted. In such event, the authority having jurisdiction
may permit the use of the products, constructions, or materials
that comply with the most recent previous edition of​
this
Code adopted by the jurisdiction.

GFCI
NEC Art. 210.8 (B) Other Than Dwelling Units.​
All 125-volt, singlephase,
15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in (1) through (5) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Commercial and institutional kitchens—for the purposes
of this section, a kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent
facilities for food preparation and cooking
(3) Rooftops
(4) Outdoors in public spaces—for the purpose of this section
a public space is defined as any space that is for
use by, or is accessible to, the public

Exception to (3) and (4): Receptacles that are not readily
accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit
for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be
permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable
provisions of Article 426.​
(5) Outdoors, where installed to comply with 210.63

I hope this info helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
reefer? you musta been a Navy man?

DM
I am no navy man. i just work in the meat industry where there is refrigerated trucks, refrigerated rooms, refrigerated coolers, refrigerated freezers, and even refrigerators in the breakroom. Thats a lot of refrigeration so I like to short hand it a bit.:wink:
 

·
DIYer
Joined
·
910 Posts
I think I will keep my refrigerator the way it is. I would hate to walk in on a Monday morning to find the gfi tripped.:eek:
You should definitely install the GFCI outlet.

Just make sure that if the GFCI should happen to break as soon as the inspector leaves, you don't accidentally replace the refrigerator GFCI with a regular outlet. That would be bad, of course. :laughing:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,248 Posts
I had my safety inspector do a walk through the other day at work, and he is telling me that I have to have a GFCI for the coke machine, refer., and microwaves in our breakroom. Basicaly he said every recep. should be GFCI protected.

Is this right?

Sorry if I am asking a question that has been beat to death. I did do a search, but didn't really find what I was looking for.

Thanks,
Rickey
I think you would need to make your safety Inspector happy
Work places tend to be inspsected closer then homeowners work around here.
 

·
Licensed electrician
Joined
·
13,503 Posts
I think I will keep my refrigerator the way it is. I would hate to walk in on a Monday morning to find the gfi tripped.:eek:

The UL standard for acceptable leakage is many times lower than the trip level for a GFI. If it were to trip it is doing its job. Which would you rather have, a spoiled refer of food or someone getting shocked or worse?

Even sump pumps are required to be GFI protected. Dead people are worse than a flooded basement.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,990 Posts
The UL standard for acceptable leakage is many times lower than the trip level for a GFI. If it were to trip it is doing its job. Which would you rather have, a spoiled refer of food (at likelihood ~50%) or someone getting shocked or worse (at likelihood 1 in 250,000)?

Even sump pumps are required to be GFI protected. Dead people are worse than a flooded basement.
Run a ground wire from the metal fridge shell to ground. No more shock danger.
 

·
Licensed electrician
Joined
·
13,503 Posts
Yoyizit,

Where did you get those stats from? Approx a 50% chance of the refer tripping the GFI over a weekend? Show your data. Even if the refer were to trip the GFI you would have a 2 in 7 chance, based on time, which is less than 1/3.

Are you aware that commercial refers are on GFI protectred circuits? How often are they tripping?

What UL approved and NEC compliant method do you propose to ground the frame of the refrigerator?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,990 Posts
>> means my replies

Yoyizit,

Where did you get those stats from?
>>Guesswork, and it's not because I haven't tried to find data on how much overall benefit these high tech gadgets actually offer the public.
The GFCI people do not have much interest in the rate of false positives becoming known, any more than the medical people would want you to know the rates of false positives and false negatives for the expensive tests they call for.

I'd say it would trip falsely at least once/yr to a 50-50 likelihood and each weekend with a 5% chance, but I'm open to get some data from forum members on GFCI troubleshooting where the answer is TNF [Trouble Not Found].

Are you aware that commercial refers are on GFI protectred circuits? How often are they tripping?
>>I'd like to see the specs on the fridges and on the GFCIs they use, particularly the trip time vs. leakage current.
I suppose in this setting one countermeasure to false trips would be an overtemp alarm.

This is a capitalist country and so commerce speaks with a loud voice. Their fridges and maybe their GFCIs are probably not the same as yours.
As a consumer, if you complain about defective products you're lucky you don't get waterboarded. :laughing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life
http://www.cnn.com/US/9909/10/ivey.memo/

What UL approved and NEC compliant method do you propose to ground the frame of the refrigerator?
>>I'd hope running a ground wire from the shell to a ground is not prohibited by any rule, but here in 2009, I can't say for sure.
If the OP elects not to go with a GFCI I'd say his Utility Function for spoiled food (let's say a utility of -$50) outweighs his Utility Function for the tiny chance (1330/330,000,000 each year) of getting electrocuted.

Believe it or not, if you walk out to your car during a thunderstorm you are equating your usefulness for Death with your utility for going shopping when you feel like it and not when the storm stops. And if you are risk-seeking, you might purposely wait for a storm to go out walking.:eek:
 

·
DIY'r
Joined
·
520 Posts
tiny chance (1330/330,000,000 each year) of getting electrocuted.
To be fair, wouldn't you have to compare the probability of getting electrocuted by a refrigerator w/o GFI protection vs. one with GFI protection? There is always a probability of electrocution (even if very low) with or w/o a GFI. You'd have to use the differential of the two probabilities as a basis for any benefit analysis.

And I suppose you could be less accurate by looking at UL-listed appliances in general, or more accurate by looking at only the OP's exact model of fridge (though there are unlikely to be any available statistics on it re. electrocutions).
 

·
DIYer
Joined
·
910 Posts
The chance of getting electrocuted with a NEC compliant installation and UL approved appliances is nearly zero.

Usually it's a combination of blatant violations that leads to bad accidents. Just like air safety, it's never just one thing.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top