[BlueBSH]

Well last night was our first big freeze of the year since I put in 4 new windows... (4 degrees over night)

Went to look at them to see how they did since they are suppose to be foam filled vinyl triple pane windows... the old windows that remain no condensation, no frost, etc...

went upstairs first to look at the 3 new ones up there condensation all over the vinyl frame, condensation inside the frame... and ice from the top left of hte bottom sash outside and formed a big frost spot on the window screen outside almost like something was forcing vapor from inside the house outside

two of the upstairs windows did this one didn't the two that did were both south facing the one that didnt was west facing..

went downstairs to look at the one that got replaced there (east facing) no frost outside but the whole window littearly the whole thing was covered in condensation and dripping it and had ice on the inside frame at the bottom...

these windows were installed to AAMA-B standards, foam sealed, outside taped, etc....

went in the room right by that room to look at an old window, no condensation, no ice, nothing.....

this can not be normal right?... Should I be screaming at the Mfg?

 

[Windows on Wash]

Whats the RH in the home.

 

[BlueBSH]

Whats the RH in the home.

right now 35%, that's the lowest our thermostat will let you set it to

 

[Windows on Wash]

Thats not that high.

Any blinds in front of the windows?

 

[BlueBSH]

Thats not that high.

Any blinds in front of the windows?

Nope, never got to putting them back up yet on the new ones this happened on... the old ones have the ~1" strip alum blinds on them

 

[carmusic]

a bad windows will frost on the inside, if it have frost on outside then it is just the weather outside that is prone to formation of ice on exterior surfaces (high outside humidity)

 

[Windows on Wash]

So...condensation and ice formation to the interior surfaces is a bad thing.

Ice on the exterior surfaces means the windows are working by limiting the amount of energy transfer to the exterior surfaces. We often see condensation on the exterior of the glass where there was none before. This happens because the window surface can no reach dew point with the reduction in heat loss from the interior of the home to the outside surface of the glass.

If you are getting condensation on the interior surfaces, we need to really know (via gauge) what the humidity level is like in the home and around the windows.

Sometimes we see window sweat where they did not before because the older units were so drafty that they allow for unintentional circulation and drying to the exterior.

 

[BlueBSH]

So...condensation and ice formation to the interior surfaces is a bad thing.

Ice on the exterior surfaces means the windows are working by limiting the amount of energy transfer to the exterior surfaces. We often see condensation on the exterior of the glass where there was none before. This happens because the window surface can no reach dew point with the reduction in heat loss from the interior of the home to the outside surface of the glass.

If you are getting condensation on the interior surfaces, we need to really know (via gauge) what the humidity level is like in the home and around the windows.

Sometimes we see window sweat where they did not before because the older units were so drafty that they allow for unintentional circulation and drying to the exterior.

Ah, good to know, thanks, didn't think about the older ones being drafty cooling down the frame

 

[Windows on Wash]

Drafts at the frame will lead to cold spots on the interior but will often times help with circulation, especially behind blinds.

 

[Bud9051]

Hi Blue,
I'm concerned about all of the moisture on the outside, I'm thinking it is coming from the inside. During the winter air leakage through a house will be "in" through the lower areas and "out" the upper areas. If there is air flowing out it will be carrying a lot of moisture out into the cold. The heavy condensation on the inside supports the idea that your air is loaded, thus the question W/W asked about needing some actual readings. When you take readings, take a temperature reading at the same time same location.

Also, ask the supplier for the "condensation resistance rating" (CR) on those windows.
http://www.mnshi.umn.edu/kb/scale/condensationresistance.html

In your climate that number should be fairly high. If they say they don't have that number, tell them you do and it doesn't look good.

Bud

 

[Canarywood1]

You need to get your indoor humidity under control, to fix the problem.


http://www.thermalwindows.com/condensation.php

 

[BlueBSH]

Humidity right now in one of the offending rooms with frost outside is 37% at 72 degrees F... and there is still frost on the outside of the window... by the window the temp only drops 2 degrees and humidity is the at 36% using a digital hygrometer to check it I let it set in the same place for about half an hour to get a reading

 

[BlueBSH]

The T-stat I have has an Outdoor temp sensor and an internal humidify sensor, it's suppose to do "frost control" by measuring both them and calculating the correct indoor humidity, and it does vary it as it gets colder outside or warmer... but the lowest it lets it go is 30% and highest is 50% for humidification.

 

[Bud9051]

To raise humidity in the winter time usually points to a humidifier. I didn't see one on your list which is good.

36 and 37% are a little on the high side, but, IMO, should not be causing the problems you are having. Also, your comparison to the older existing windows is a fair example that the new windows or the installation is the difference. If high humidity was the problem then older windows should be having a bigger problem.

An infrared camera could tell you what is happening in a blink, and they rent them. With these cold temperatures you would spot any air leakage or thermal issues immediately.

Do you have the brand of those windows?

Bud

 

[BlueBSH]

To raise humidity in the winter time usually points to a humidifier. I didn't see one on your list which is good.

36 and 37% are a little on the high side, but, IMO, should not be causing the problems you are having. Also, your comparison to the older existing windows is a fair example that the new windows or the installation is the difference. If high humidity was the problem then older windows should be having a bigger problem.

An infrared camera could tell you what is happening in a blink, and they rent them. With these cold temperatures you would spot any air leakage or thermal issues immediately.

Do you have the brand of those windows?

Bud

Original windows were Gorell's the new ones are Soft-Lite's (the company that bought Gorell out when they went under)

 

[Bud9051]

Not sure what model you have, but Soft-Lite looks like a quality window. Here is a link that references the CR number at 72 for one particular model.
http://www.morningstardoorsandwindows.com/products/andersen-vs-soft-lite/

Below is a link that says: "
"If the typical indoor temperature in the winter is 70°F with a relative humidity of 40%, a CRF of 64 will prevent most condensation down to an outdoor temperature of 0°F. An A CRF rating of 70 will prevent most condensation down to -15°, and a CRF of 72 will do the same down to -20°F."
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/rating-windows-condensation-resistance


Note CR and CRF are two different ratings but I don't know your model so I did not dig deeper. However, it doesn't look like the quality of the window is contributing to your issue. Review the articles and dig out the rating for your model.


Since cold outside air contains very little moisture, we are left wondering where that outside condensation/ice is coming from. Is there an exhaust vent, bathroom, kitchen, dryer, high efficiency furnace, anywhere near that problem area. A bath fan exhausting into a soffit can deliver moisture to the side of the house.


I'll let you read.


Bud

 

[carpdad]

There is no window that will not be cold. Insulation just means slower loss of heat, so if you have humidity indoors, condensation will form on the glass. Also, vinyl windows are known to be more leaky than other windows. You should get do a smoke test to see how tight the vinyl windows are. If you have gas burning fire place, furnace, boiler, water heater, they will add moisture to the indoors. Bathrooms need extra venting. Potted plants, pet water dish, toilets, all add moisture to the house.
I need new windows also, but the vinyl windows I saw at Homedepot, etc, did not change from the vinyls I saw 30 years ago and I decided Anderson 400 series was the way to go. But at least, with vinyls, you don't have to worry about the rotting wood frames.