[MLMIB]

I live in Maryland for what the helps.

So I'm looking to frame and insulate my basement in the next month or so, for one of the walls I have a thickness restriction due to a stair landing and I was planning on pulling one of those EPS wall systems with built in studs in. no thermal bridges by wood studs would give me a nice consistent 8 R value in 2 inches, and on the other walls I wanted to do 2 inch XPS against the wall first and 2x4 studs past that, such that the XPS would be uninterrupted and give me a nice thermal break too.

It's dawned on me that I may run into problems with fire breaks so I'm trying to figure out what I need to do. 1) is there a requirement for vertical fire breaks or is it just horizontal fire breaks every 10 feet?

If the requirement is just horizontal fire breaks every 10 feet, can I just make the top plate a 2x6 and call that the fire break on the walls with XPS and just put a 1x2 on top of the EPS wall and use that as the horizontal fire break there?

Should I paint the inside side of the XPS to help somehow since I think if I wasn't putting drywall on I'd be required to. I will have drywall on but since there will be a bit of a gap perhaps the paint helps otherwise?

any advice is much appreciated.

 

[oh'mike]

I move this for you---hopefully one of our members can answer this one for you---Mike--

 

[Mingledtrash]

How high is the ceiling? what is the actually restriction measurement? if possible please throw up some pics of the landing.

as for material requirement you need either single ply 2x or, 2 ply 1x

yes the top plate of the wall is considered your fire brake make sure any cracks between top plate and concrete are sealed with fire rated material such as rock wool.

 

[MLMIB]

How high is the ceiling? what is the actually restriction measurement? if possible please throw up some pics of the landing.

as for material requirement you need either single ply 2x or, 2 ply 1x

yes the top plate of the wall is considered your fire brake make sure any cracks between top plate and concrete are sealed with fire rated material such as rock wool.

ceilings are 8 feet tall, the side with the landing restriction has a soffit surrounding HVAC ducts that comes down 1 ft, so it's 7 ft there as pictures will show.

Do I avoid any requirement for horizontal fire breaks?

This shows the wall with the stair landing restriction, from the last stair.

This shows the far walls before I had finished pulling down the old furring strips and black stuff. On this wall I plan on sticking 2" XPS as a thermal break continuous on it. I'm assuming I only need to do a fire break on the top?

and this is a crummy picture (but the only one I have) that shows the stair landing that is the restriction. If I recall correctly even with the 2" foam and 3/8" drywall it might be a half in or so off from being completely legal but I figured it was the best I could do since I can't find a thinner insulation system with built in framing.

 

[Mingledtrash]

ibc R302.11 states not to exceed 10 feet. horizontally or vertically. but it also depends on if your local code is stricter.(some municipalities use different codes) so you would need to check that out. You can use 1/2 gypsum if that is easier than 2x material.

R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided that the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).
http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015 IRC HTML/Chapter 3.html

I may have an idea for a way to get your landing in you could frame the landing up to the next stair tread and then add a step after

 

[MLMIB]

ibc R302.11 states not to exceed 10 feet. horizontally or vertically. but it also depends on if your local code is stricter.(some municipalities use different codes) so you would need to check that out. You can use 1/2 gypsum if that is easier than 2x material.

R311.7.6 Landings for stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be not less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided that the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).
http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015 IRC HTML/Chapter 3.html

I may have an idea for a way to get your landing in you could frame the landing up to the next stair tread and then add a step after

so I think R302.11 is only talking about cavities formed by 2x4's (or other 2x framing) since those are what I'm assuming they mean by "concealed draft openings"

R302.ll Fireblocking. In combustible construction, fire-
blocking shall be provided to cut off all concealed draft open-
ings (both vertical and horizontal) and to form an effective
fire barrier between stories, and between a top story and the
roof space.

Fireblocking shall be provided in wood-frame construc-
tion in the following locations:

1. In concealed spaces of stud walls and partitions, includ-
ing furred spaces and parallel rows of studs or stag-
gered studs, as follows:

1.1 . Vertically at the ceiling and floor levels.

1.2. Horizontally at intervals not exceeding 10 feet
(3048 mm).

and if not, the wood-frame construction seems to limit the applicability to only the wood framing, thats my reading at the moment... I called the inspector and waiting for a call back.

for the stair landing, I think I'll have something like 35.5" on the landing once the drywall is up, or it may be just at 36 depending on if you measure from the tread or from the "rise" part of the stair. but it's super tight for code but I think it will feel ok. turning the stairs while possible would make the room feel really weird and it would turn the stairwell into a room when most people are in fact trying to go the other way.

 

[Mingledtrash]

In concealed spaces of stud walls and partitions, including furred spaces and rows of studs or staggered studs

It refers to any concealed space including stud bays. wood frame construction refers to the wall construction type unless i am missing something you will be using 2x4 studs after the foam so it is considered wood frame construction. the foam is considered a combustible in a concealed space. so technically you would have to dived the foam with a firestop every 10 ft but i have never seen it done. As every inspector is different on what they are picky about and what they look for its just as well you get the answer from him.

you could turn the landing both ways if u have to. i couldnt really tell by the pic so i made an assumption just to throw out a possible solution.

Any way sounds like you have most every thing resolved after talking with the inspector, so good luck and dont be afraid to ask if you have any further questions.

 

[Gary in WA]

In your first post you confused horizontal with vertical fire-stopping. As you are under both Codes http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/maryland/, you need the top continuously fire blocked and the wall every 10' (possibly let-in beteen the foam, as said, check locally); 2. At all interconnections between concealed vertical and horizontal spaces such as occur at soffits, drop ceilings and cove ceilings. from; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2006f2/icod_irc_2006f2_6_sec002_par017.htm

The 1x2 may work, depends on Inspector. Be sure to add a vapor barrier, if touching the CMU and foam board under the bottom plate (may be untreated- verify).http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2006f2/icod_irc_2006f2_6_sec002_par018.htm

Gary

 

[MLMIB]

In your first post you confused horizontal with vertical fire-stopping. As you are under both Codes http://www.cmdgroup.com/building-codes/maryland/, you need the top continuously fire blocked and the wall every 10' (possibly let-in beteen the foam, as said, check locally); 2. At all interconnections between concealed vertical and horizontal spaces such as occur at soffits, drop ceilings and cove ceilings. from; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2006f2/icod_irc_2006f2_6_sec002_par017.htm

The 1x2 may work, depends on Inspector. Be sure to add a vapor barrier, if touching the CMU and foam board under the bottom plate (may be untreated- verify).http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2006f2/icod_irc_2006f2_6_sec002_par018.htm

Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the helpful links, I hadn't seen the second one. I know the company that makes the 2 inch EPS with integrated studs says they passed the test so I think they qualify as approved in that case. I'm looking into XPS.

I'm a bit confused by the vapor barrier, if touching CMU comment. I'm not sure what CMU stands for (concrete masonry unit?) but I think the 2 inches of XPS will be sufficient for vapor barrier after looking here...

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/calculating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing

unless I'm mistaken which is perfectly possible. My plan is to just put 2 inches of XPS against the wall with liquid nails, run a bead of liquid nails on the butts and tape to complete the vapor barrier, is that not enough?

 

[Mingledtrash]

Gary,

Thanks for the helpful links, I hadn't seen the second one. I know the company that makes the 2 inch EPS with integrated studs says they passed the test so I think they qualify as approved in that case. I'm looking into XPS.

I'm a bit confused by the vapor barrier, if touching CMU comment. I'm not sure what CMU stands for (concrete masonry unit?) but I think the 2 inches of XPS will be sufficient for vapor barrier after looking here...

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing

unless I'm mistaken which is perfectly possible. My plan is to just put 2 inches of XPS against the wall with liquid nails, run a bead of liquid nails on the butts and tape to complete the vapor barrier, is that not enough?

I am assuming what you are calling eps is structurally insulated panels or sip's

The sip's are manufactured to comply with the 10 foot rule inside of the sips, but if you put them against a concrete wall the gap between the sip and the concrete is consider concealed space so you would need to make sure it is properly partitioned with firestop.

Now based on that assumption (I know, "u me ass or something") the panels have a layer of osb then a layer of foam and then another layer of osb. so why not get rid of one of the layers of osb by just pining pressure treated 2x2 or 2x4 ripped in half to the concrete every 16 in.-24in. then adding foam in between and then dry walling over it you end up with a total of 2 in. thick. If you use 2 in sip's you will need a space between the sip and the concrete prob 1/2 to 1 in. then the 2 in sip then drywall on top of that. this adds up to 3 - 3 1/2 in.

p.s. if you have time could you link the specific product you are refering to as eps.

 

[MLMIB]

I am assuming what you are calling eps is structurally insulated panels or sip's

The sip's are manufactured to comply with the 10 foot rule inside of the sips, but if you put them against a concrete wall the gap between the sip and the concrete is consider concealed space so you would need to make sure it is properly partitioned with firestop.

Now based on that assumption (I know, "u me ass or something") the panels have a layer of osb then a layer of foam and then another layer of osb. so why not get rid of one of the layers of osb by just pining pressure treated 2x2 or 2x4 ripped in half to the concrete every 16 in.-24in. then adding foam in between and then dry walling over it you end up with a total of 2 in. thick. If you use 2 in sip's you will need a space between the sip and the concrete prob 1/2 to 1 in. then the 2 in sip then drywall on top of that. this adds up to 3 - 3 1/2 in.

p.s. if you have time could you link the specific product you are refering to as eps.

so when I say EPS I'm using this product...

http://www.insofast.com/ux-panels/

but what is frustrating to me is that it's really just EPS with some groves on the back for moisture control and a piece of plastic every 16 OC embedded in the foam to act as the stud. The plastic doesn't go through the entire sheet of EPS so it can't act as the vertical fire break required and otherwise it's just EPS. so... I don't know if this company and the others that offer similar products of EPS/XPS with an integrated 1x2 plastic or wood "stud" are skirting the code by selling to DIY or if they're legit. I've talked to them and the answer I got regarding fire breaks was that they passed the tests for flame spread etc. but that it's up to the inspectors, which drives me nuts that it could be the difference of a good day or a bad day (or a good inspector from the pool or a bad one) as to if something is acceptable, that doesn't seem right.

And, if the EPS product is fine without a stud all the way through than the XPS should be ok as well as a continuous layer, but I haven't seen it described. But for that matter, I don't know how double studded walls in the cold parts of the country would work as the internal and external studs wouldn't touch each other otherwise it defeats the purpose.

I'm not sure what you were referring to in your second paragraph, I'd like to avoid having the put a stud to the CMU, but I may not have a choice. every 2 hours it seems I go back and forth on if I'll have to or won't have to.

 

[Mingledtrash]

so when I say EPS I'm using this product...

http://www.insofast.com/ux-panels/

but what is frustrating to me is that it's really just EPS with some groves on the back for moisture control and a piece of plastic every 16 OC embedded in the foam to act as the stud. The plastic doesn't go through the entire sheet of EPS so it can't act as the vertical fire break required and otherwise it's just EPS. so... I don't know if this company and the others that offer similar products of EPS/XPS with an integrated 1x2 plastic or wood "stud" are skirting the code by selling to DIY or if they're legit. I've talked to them and the answer I got regarding fire breaks was that they passed the tests for flame spread etc. but that it's up to the inspectors, which drives me nuts that it could be the difference of a good day or a bad day (or a good inspector from the pool or a bad one) as to if something is acceptable, that doesn't seem right.

And, if the EPS product is fine without a stud all the way through than the XPS should be ok as well as a continuous layer, but I haven't seen it described. But for that matter, I don't know how double studded walls in the cold parts of the country would work as the internal and external studs wouldn't touch each other otherwise it defeats the purpose.

I'm not sure what you were referring to in your second paragraph, I'd like to avoid having the put a stud to the CMU, but I may not have a choice. every 2 hours it seems I go back and forth on if I'll have to or won't have to.

Ok now that i see that it makes so much more sense. so you would want to read 2603.9 and 2604.1 of irc it states that they must meet all flame spread and smoke-devoloped requirement of chapter 8

found it!! 2603.4 (this is the section provide by the manufactures report on there website)
anecdote: Combustible concealed spaces shall comply with Section 718
718 is the one with the ten foot rule.

All the years of doing construction has taught me that almost anytime you have combustible materials the ten foot rule will be applied unless you have fire sprinklers.


http://www.insofast.com/downloads/InSoFast-IntertekCCRR-1029.pdf

In this ccrr it says it must be pre-approved by your local inspector even it it does comply with irc this is because it is not a common material and your inspector might fail it just cause he dont personally like the product or has never seen it used before.

Anyway firestop for this situation is easy every ten feet cut a piece of 1/2 in. type x gypsum glue it in between the panels.

They say it passes flame spread.. so does kraft face fiberglass insulation you still comply with chapter 7 and install firestop. Surface flame spread and firestop are two different beasts one is a material property the other is its on entity entirely as far as code goes. All combustible construction must be firestopped

the video on there site showing installation is not compliant with the IRC but maybe they are in a municapality that allows there product.

 

[MLMIB]

Ok now that i see that it makes so much more sense. so you would want to read 2603.9 and 2604.1 of irc it states that they must meet all flame spread and smoke-devoloped requirement of chapter 8 found it!! 2603.4 (this is the section provide by the manufactures report on there website) anecdote: Combustible concealed spaces shall comply with Section 718 718 is the one with the ten foot rule. All the years of doing construction has taught me that almost anytime you have combustible materials the ten foot rule will be applied unless you have fire sprinklers. http://www.insofast.com/downloads/InSoFast-IntertekCCRR-1029.pdf In this ccrr it says it must be pre-approved by your local inspector even it it does comply with irc this is because it is not a common material and your inspector might fail it just cause he dont personally like the product or has never seen it used before. Anyway firestop for this situation is easy every ten feet cut a piece of 1/2 in. type x gypsum glue it in between the panels. They say it passes flame spread.. so does kraft face fiberglass insulation you still comply with chapter 7 and install firestop. Surface flame spread and firestop are two different beasts one is a material property the other is its on entity entirely as far as code goes. All combustible construction must be firestopped the video on there site showing installation is not compliant with the IRC but maybe they are in a municapality that allows there product.

Mingled,

Reading the CCRR and the examples of installation they don't show a firebreak every 10 ft, they show three continuous panels without one which would be 12 ft, any idea why?

Also, if I cut in a 1/2 drywall can it be green board as I'd like to discourage mold where possible on this wall. Also, when I do cut it in, if I tape over it with builders tape will it maintain my vapor barrier as I plan on using the eps and xps as my vapor/moisture barriers.

For the xps, I'll just run every seventh or so stud all the way to the cmu, it will degrade the continuous insulation but I can do it. I'm assuming I'll have to frame the Windows and doors with 2x6's as well. But I'm using the xps as my vapor and moisture barrier, so if I spray1 inch of spray foam around those 2x6's I'm assuming I'll maintain the barriers, correct?

When I get home I have some links that talk about continuous insulation being approved in commercial setting with steel studs that I'll be curious to get your take on.

Thank you!

 

[Mingledtrash]

Mingled,

Reading the CCRR and the examples of installation they don't show a firebreak every 10 ft, they show three continuous panels without one which would be 12 ft, any idea why?

Also, if I cut in a 1/2 drywall can it be green board as I'd like to discourage mold where possible on this wall. Also, when I do cut it in, if I tape over it with builders tape will it maintain my vapor barrier as I plan on using the eps and xps as my vapor/moisture barriers.

For the xps, I'll just run every seventh or so stud all the way to the cmu, it will degrade the continuous insulation but I can do it. I'm assuming I'll have to frame the Windows and doors with 2x6's as well. But I'm using the xps as my vapor and moisture barrier, so if I spray1 inch of spray foam around those 2x6's I'm assuming I'll maintain the barriers, correct?

When I get home I have some links that talk about continuous insulation being approved in commercial setting with steel studs that I'll be curious to get your take on.

Thank you!

In the CCRR it has quite a few codes listed if you looked them up some lead to other codes. One of the codes is 2603.something if you follow that trail it takes you to 718 which requires the draft/fire stop.

why wouldnt they do it in there video. who knows maybe its not required where the video was filmed maybe they want to make it look easier so more people will buy it.

Ya about that green board i wasnt thinkin about moisture. so maybe pressure treated 2x4 ripped down to the thickness you need would be better i dont know as i am not an expert on drywall. code just states type x gypsum or nominal 2x material or 19/32 sheathing. or double 1" thick wood with over lap.

for the vapor barrier i think you should make a new thread as its not something i have a lot of experience in. i live and work in the desert

 

[MLMIB]

In the CCRR it has quite a few codes listed if you looked them up some lead to other codes. One of the codes is 2603.something if you follow that trail it takes you to 718 which requires the draft/fire stop.

why wouldnt they do it in there video. who knows maybe its not required where the video was filmed maybe they want to make it look easier so more people will buy it.

Ya about that green board i wasnt thinkin about moisture. so maybe pressure treated 2x4 ripped down to the thickness you need would be better i dont know as i am not an expert on drywall. code just states type x gypsum or nominal 2x material or 19/32 sheathing. or double 1" thick wood with over lap.

for the vapor barrier i think you should make a new thread as its not something i have a lot of experience in. i live and work in the desert

here are the other that talk of it without fire breaks in the XPS layer. (at least not the vertical ones)

page 5

https://grace.com/construction/en-us/Documents/PAB-126E%20NFPA%20285%20Compliant%20with%20PAB_8-18-15.pdf

page 71 they talk about continuous insulation as a requirement, but I don't know how they'd want you to achieve that... (the only one I can think of would be mineral wool blankets, but those are hard to fasten especially if you want to avoid punching holes with nails in cinderblock)

http://mdcodes2.umbc.edu/files/2012%20IECC%20Maryland%20Amendments%2012-27-2011.pdf

and my comment regarding the insofast showing no fire breaks was on the CCRR page 5, the report shows 3 panels (12 feet) no break, which I would assume means they tested it and are approving it to be in such a fashion, yes?

 

[MLMIB]

found one that passes code I think!

http://www.trustgreenguard.com/insulation-board/xps-type-iv-25-psi-board/

I think they passed the required tests, at least from my uneducated reading...

http://www.trustgreenguard.com/wp-c...1407_05_Kingspan_GreenGuard_XPS_Type_I_IV.pdf

It has a type x specifications which I presume make it ok to use without fire breaks?

 

[Gary in WA]

Lot of good code links! Insofast, again, lol; http://www.diychatroom.com/f19/wall-moisture-126170/

http://www.diychatroom.com/f103/basement-insulation-options-181699/index3/

Gary