[SteveDub]

Last Summer we had a Bluestone patio installed. It was a fairly large job which consisted of one large patio two walkways and a smaller size patio. Not only that but the job was very expensive and. The blue stone was laid on a dry base which consisted of four to six inches of minus compacted, with about a half inch of sand and then the stones. The Patio is Bluestone natural cleft with 4 different sizes in the pattern and half inch grout joints

The grout that was used was a polymeric sand made by Alliance, the product name is XP. The bag States the grout is for joints up to 1.5 inches wide, ours was half inch wide. I am very disappointed in this product and need some help with trying to remedy the situation.

Product has failed and about 80% of the job. Some areas have absorbed so much water that they are growing Moss. But most of it is just wet sand that could be struck out with your fingertip, a high heel women shoe would go right through it twisting an ankle. Not only that but the product is not evenly colored. According to the manufacturer the product when dry should be almost as hard as mortar. But when wet it should be firm like an eraser. Mine is neither an almost the entire job and the contractor is not returning my calls. Shaded areas are typically the worst. Only 20% of the job the sand is actually hardened and uniform in color.

I need some advice on how I can remedy the situation. I know most likely it will all need to be removed with a new product installed in its place. I honestly think the problem is partially a poor installation and partially the wrong product. I need to know if I can just use regular mortar in the place of the poly sand or if there's a different product out there that would produce better results. Just sucks that I spent so much money on a beautiful patio only to have the grout look horrible and perform horribly. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Tscarborough]

Typically, the manufacturer will warranty the product with a few caveats. First, contact the manufacturer representative in your area and have them do a jobsite inspection.

 

[SteveDub]

After the contractor became non-responsive, I did contact the manufacturer of the product, which was Alliance. They are a Canadian company. The local field guy did come out and inspect the job but really did not comment on what the problems for the failure. Just a lot of double talk.

I kept calling to get a solid response from them. So he came out again and we stripped the faling sand from about a hundred square foot area and regrouted it with a different product in their line. To be honest the second product is worse than the original product. They came back about 30 days later to inspect the re grout area. And basically just walk away with zero remedy.

The polymeric sand used was manufactured by Alliance, Gator XP. The product is garbage.

 

[Tscarborough]

It may be that you have unrealistic expectations of the material. I have never seen polymeric that was as hard as mortar, nor any that would withstand a high heel in a 1/2" joint. The purpose of polymeric over regular sand is that it will prevent seeds from germinating in the joint and prevent washing of the sand. That is it. For a project such as yours, it may have been better to specify a mortar joint or a 1/4" soft joint.

 

[SteveDub]

Unrealistic expectations is definitely not the case here. The sample provided me before installation was hard and firm. My conversations with the technical support people claim that the product when dry should be quite firm and when wet should be the consistency of an eraser. That's from the horse's mouth and I took their word for that.

The patio has been installed for about 7 months now and in the areas where the sun does not directly hit the patio the joints are completely mossd over. The Moss has grown to about a half inch or three quarters of an inch and the only way to remove it is to remove the entire joint and reinstall some product. On a $50,000 job I should not have to be dealing with this within the first year. And 50% of the current joints you're able to strike out the polymeric sand with your finger. I am not happy about nor should I be.

 

[ZTMAN]

Read this:

http://www.devineescapes.com/polyme...commend-this-practice-and-i-will-tell-you-why

 

[jomama45]

I need some advice on how I can remedy the situation. I know most likely it will all need to be removed with a new product installed in its place. I honestly think the problem is partially a poor installation and partially the wrong product. I need to know if I can just use regular mortar in the place of the poly sand or if there's a different product out there that would produce better results.

I wouldn't recommend using mortar on an install like this, unless you can live with random cracking in the mortar and the need to tuckpoint the joints every few years. It isn't meant for an unstable base such as 4-6" of gravel, which is likely to heave with frost in your enviroment. If it was "wet-laid" on a proper concrete base with sufficient respect to the control joints, it might be a different story. Not to mention, it's a fairly large undertaking to remove all of the poly sand and re-grout with mortar w/o making a huge mess........

 

[Tscarborough]

Yes, I was not recommending using a mortar joint with a flexible pavement, I was suggesting that with 1/2" joints it probably should have been designed as a wet set over concrete. With any flexible paving, joints over 1/4" are problematic with polymeric sand.

 

[Devin Devine]

Like others have said--polymeric sand does not do so good over larger joints.

And that's one of the reasons people use polysand with irregular flagstone--thinking that they have this magical substance, that's like sand but it gets hard when you hose it down--that way, you can get away with 2" wide uneven joints. Yay!

Cracks then begin forming within a year. Separation occurs, with the polysand peeling away from the edge of some stones. You get a poly haze all over the face of the stones from sloppy initial installations....and then weeds end up growing in the joints anyway. And you paid 30 dollars per bag too.....ugh.

Polymeric sand, in a word: sucks. Especially when used over larger irregular joints like you tend to get with irregular flagstone.

ZTMAN mentioned a good article....


http://www.devineescapes.com/polyme...mmend-this-practice-and-i-will-tell-you-why/%

 

[JermakinMihorni]

My contractor used polymeric sand on our flagstone patio, and we're having the same problems. Most of the joints are still soft and wet, 6 months later. Apparently stone dust is the way to go....

 

[murron_elwood]

Steve,

Did you ever fins a solution for your patio? What you describe is exactly my own issue with my patio. I used a paver product with a wide joint but the Alliance Gator product acts as you have experienced. It is wet and mushy, was never hard to any touch, grows a dark moss on top and comes out easily with hosing. I was looking at a product from SRW specific for wide joints but searched and found your post. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[tstex]

Guys, the original poster and a few others are in a world of hurt here. To spend $50,000 on job and be really disappointed is truly disheartening. Also, when you pay 50K and the installer tells you the filler/grout/etc will be hard and it's not, in my opinion, that's not the buyers fault. Now he knows polymeric sand is only a filler and not a true grout for a non concrete base. He would not have done this if he knew.

Ok, so the OP and a few others are stuck w p-meric sand in large gaps and it's failing due to a misapplication by installer, what do they do now to properly fix it and not feel like's he getting tattooed again?

Steve, do you have a contract w the installer? if so, what does the SOW state as well as warranty?

Since your sub-base is not solid [concrete], using mortar will crack when it shifts. What might be the best alternative is to remove all the PM-Sand, and go w a grout that consists of larger granules that will not give like PM-Sand. However, the best solution would have been to install the stone butting up to each other, then the PM-Sand would only be used as a filler, rather than a supporting grout.

To conclude, hopefully someone here can help you. Good luck and I hope you get a resolution soon, as the others posters on here too that are in the same predicament.