[daudi81]

We're building a house and our basement ceilings are supposed to be 9ft tall. However, the builder just put HVAC in and not only is 1/3'rd of our basement down to 8ft due to the venting, they had to fir down under a beam right in the middle, so we'll have another box right there that goes down to around 7.5ft. Looks pretty bad.

We are finishing the basement, so it's a little annoying that a big chunk of our ceilings in the basement are like this.

I know ducting needs to go somewhere, but most of the homes we have walked through in this caliber ($1M), the ducting is pretty minimal. Just wondering if this is excessive?

I'll try to get another picture of it actually framed in, as they had to go over another 6-7inches for pipes, and down another 3-5 inches for framing. This picture only shows a portion of the basement, we have these everywhere though.

 

[joecaption]

Looks like it is what it is.
9' is an old ball height for a ceiling.
Really needed it that height then the walls should have been taller.
Was that 9' in the contract and plans?

 

[daudi81]

Contract calls for 9ft foundation walls - which it is. So that can't be helped.

We looked through all the (100 or so) pictures of the homes we walked through prior to purchasing this build, and never saw it this excessive. We purchased this shortly after the foundation had just gotten poured - so when we came to the site one day and noticed the excessive HVAC it was a little shocking. We were supposed to have an HVAC walkthrough prior to it being installed so expectations could be communicated, but we didn't have one.... making this situation all the more annoying.

 

[daudi81]

Here's a pic of it after it was framed in:

Picture doesn't do it justice, hard to capture the extent of it in 1-2 angles.

 

[sktn77a]

Not a lot you can do about it when the ductwork must cross the joists at 90 degrees. Is there an alternative location for the furnace that could avoid this?

 

[user_12345a]

Better to have properly sized, properly done air ducts and less headroom than a crappy hvac system.

A basement is for mechanicals and storage first, living space second. I actually think basements are best left unfinished, or finished with a drop ceiling for access.

 

[Bud9051]

Probably too late to consider, but what about a mini-split system, where the coolant lines are all that needs to be run throughout the house.

The other thought goes back to the house design, the architect should have provided a ducting plan to avoid this, back wall or better location of the furnace.

If this house is in the million dollar category, otherwise you will hate it every time you look at it.

Bud

 

[daudi81]

Probably too late to consider, but what about a mini-split system, where the coolant lines are all that needs to be run throughout the house.

The other thought goes back to the house design, the architect should have provided a ducting plan to avoid this, back wall or better location of the furnace.

If this house is in the million dollar category, otherwise you will hate it every time you look at it.

Bud

Yes that's actually something I had mentioned to the builder when I first saw the monstrosity in the basement. But the builder wanted me to pay to have the original ducting removed, as well as putting in the mini-split. It's a 2500s/ft basement, so I'm sure the mini-split option would cost quite a bit to do properly - but had I known the alternative (what we got) I would have gladly paid for it.

As far as the architect / blueprints....When this first happened, I said the same thing to my builder. Why wasn't the ducting accommodated in the original floor-plan? It's as if the HVAC was a complete afterthought.

Their answer is always "it's not that bad." However, when we look back at every home we've ever walked through in this price range, it's by far and away the worst we've encountered. It's not even close.

In any case, this build has been a pretty big nightmare - and this is actually not the worst that has happened in the process. If anyone lives in Utah - avoid these guys at all costs :vs_mad:

 

[user_12345a]

The ducts have to be a certain size to deliver the proper air flow. It's not the builder's fault.

If you didn't want ducts you should have asked for a hot water system, but then you would need mini-splits for a/c and those are expensive, loaded with electronics.

The ducts are feeding the whole house, not the basement. 5000 sq ft is a huge house and large ducts are to be expected.

You can't just change heating system plans after the system is installed; this stuff should always be settled before the foundation is even dug out.

 

[SeniorSitizen]

QUOTE:As far as the architect / blueprints....When this first happened, I said the same thing to my builder. Why wasn't the ducting accommodated in the original floor-plan? It's as if the HVAC was a complete afterthought.
********************************************

That's exactly why my HVAC contractor does NOT do new construction.

 

[beenthere]

Unfortunately a lot people that see or hear 9' foundation walls. Think it means a high head clearance. When it just means better room for the mechanicals.

While you could have gone with mini splits. Would you be happy with a cassette/ indoor unit on the wall of just bout every room in the house. Something that looks like this.

 

[Bob Sanders]

We're building a house and our basement ceilings are supposed to be 9ft tall. However, the builder just put HVAC in and not only is 1/3'rd of our basement down to 8ft due to the venting, they had to fir down under a beam right in the middle, so we'll have another box right there that goes down to around 7.5ft. Looks pretty bad.

So now you have something very close to a typical basement.

My basement was 7.5 feet without the duct work. I repositioned the furnace so most of the duct work could go up into the joists and most of the runs that go across the joists are nearer to the outside walls. It adds a bit more wind resistance (longer duct work and a few more bends/turns) but at least I don't have that 'headache rack' running down the middle of the basement.

 

[Bud9051]

Just a guess here, but that beam they bumped down under could have been designed as flush and maybe was. But with the higher ceiling they decided to avoid all of the joist hangers and place the beam below the everything. What would they have done with 8' basement walls?

Bud

 

[CompleteW&D]

Think of it this way.... when all of those with the "pretty" basements and no bulk heads are B*&^%ing up a storm because their second floor bedrooms are 15 degrees warmer than the rest of the house when it's 95 degrees in the shade, and you walk in to cool comfort bliss every time.

When I sold residential HVAC, I had a couple of higher end builders I worked with (~ $500 K - $750K) and a remodeler that didn't touch a job for under $50K. I would always meet with the HO's at the plan stage to discuss air flow requirements for premium comfort. I had many arguments over duct and return air placements. But I always stuck to my guns and the contractors always had my back knowing how good we were.

The last home I did was a 3500 square foot - 111' long Ranch with both a walk out basement and a full glass three sided sun room off of the kitchen. It was a zoned system (4 total with 2 separate HVAC systems) which required a lot more in the way of trunk lines. Once we were finished and to do the HVAC walk through with the builder and HO's, it was one of those ultra humid scorching 98 degree days. I was nervous as heck, but we had less than a TWO degree difference in temperature from one end of the house to the other - including the sun room.

To say they didn't mind the bulk heads now was an understatement. They even sent me a Christmas card with a $500 check in it that Christmas (which we had below zero wind chills), thanking me once again for how toasty warm and comfortable their new home was throughout.

 

[daudi81]

I should maybe take more pictures - like I said those pictures don't do it justice - thats only one area...it's pretty bad down there.

In any case - the problem from the get-go is that we were supposed to have an HVAC walkthrough and plan BEFORE they put the thing in. If nothing else, the expectations / communication would have been there, and it would not have been a shock. The other problem is we are going to have a kitchen /finish work/ cabinets / fireplace going down there that we had already ordered and designed out. I knew before-hand going into this that there could be duct-work in certain places - that's why I wanted the walkthrough so we could work around the ductwork. They said it would be fine, but it wasn't. So we had to redesign the cabinets in our kitchen (it's going right under that 7.5-8' ceiling), we cannot put a fireplace on that opposite wall anymore (they can't figure out where to vent it now that the ducts are there), and some of our finish work / cabinetry had to be canceled due to the ducting. That's all money and time wasted on our part. And the worst part - it could have been prevented and avoided by communicating expectations.

You're right in that it's not the builders fault that there had to be ducting in there. But it was his fault on not communicating correctly or giving us that HVAC walkthrough so we had expectations going into it on what we were getting.

Either way, the home is going to be around $1.2M finished - and I just don't remember the last time we walked into a basement with ducting that excessive and installed without any regards to design, etc. If it was going to be that excessive, we could have had a quick 1-2 hour walkthrough on options on a workable design (trey ceilings, etc), without sacrificing the performance. We didn't get that - so now we're stuck scrambling with a different basement than we thought we were going to get. Not a huge deal breaker in of itself, my kids will be using the thing, not me....but still disappointing.

 

[CompleteW&D]

I understand your frustration. And, you are absolutely right. There SHOULD have been a pre construction meeting to discuss the HVAC system(s), layout and duct design. Maybe some of it could have been moved or re-designed for sure.

I'm so sorry for your frustrations on this.

 

[Technow]

I ran into a similar situation as this years ago.

1. It was going to be a finished basement and there was no ceiling height in the basement to hide the ducts. It would have been similar to yours.

2. Talked to the builder....we need a couple of extra courses of bricks to get the ceiling high enough to have a smooth ceiling. It would cost a lot more than the minisplit

The duct size is what it has to be.

 

[user_12345a]

With the new houses being 2000 to 4000 sq ft excluding a basement, you would think there wouldn't be too much fuss about what the ceiling looks like.

They used to be done with drop ceilings, large bulkheads for ducts, everything accessible. the drop ceilings are great for access and future repairs.

Now looks rule it all even if it means compromising mechanicals or spending a lot more money.

What the hell is wrong with this:

 

[supers05]

Is this a generalized build in a subdivision? Looks fairly normal from my point of view. I completely agree that communication was the biggest fault. It probably won't look nearly as bad once everything is framed finished. The biggest problem was that you planned based on a plan that wasn't communicated, so completely understandable to be frustrated.

Most houses here are 7-8 ft basements. I usually have to duck under bulkheads when walking in basements. Using the perimeter instead of the middle usually helps but has to be planned very carefully. VRF systems like from Mitsubishi, have lots of different indoor units to satisfy almost any design, but they aren't cheap.

It already looks better then the houses around here and yours is cheaper and larger then the average for us. (But I live in a major city)

Cheers!

 

[throrope]

I finished our basement two years ago. I'm a registered engineer with 25 years of HVAC experience. For half of my professional career I cursed the architects for their constant nag over ceiling heights. But, I've since matured and when it came to my basement, I didn't want to give the drywall its 1/2 inch. Yes, I have a soffit hiding our duct work and even sneaked high hats between the duct runs.

The vague answers your contractor is giving you are not reassurance, they're cost avoidance. Their cost avoidance. I also doubt your contract has enough teeth to force them to redo the work. I do see in the picture the duct is tight to the structure and transitions around the beam. From this I anticipate your contractor is not dismissing your concern, but like others noted, communications may need improvement.

Your observations are qualitative and comparative, but don't have the engineering needed for determination. Either will any picture. However, at $1.2M, I suspect you have some cash to hire an architect and engineer for a couple days to design from scratch a configuration that accommodates your desires.

With respect to split systems, for that open basement space they are a good option. For the rest of the house, no. You would need a separate cassette for each enclosed room and that will not only get expensive, but also ugly. Most new homes are ducted for good reason.

Our basement is about half the size and like yours is full walk-out. I made provisions for a split system, but during our sweltering August, thanks to low watt CFL bulbs and the natural heat sink of ground contact walls and floor, it never got above 78 degrees F. You will need heat, but since you have a conditioned space above and little wall exposure, I anticipate you won't need much. I ran a loop of fin-tube from our 75 gallon hot water heater's heating connections which can make it the most cozy room in the house. I also suggest a dehumidifier. That natural heat sink will cool the place, but won't remove any moisture. For the same reason, I suggest serving the basement with a separate system than the upper floors to avoid a control conflict.