[jfleron]

Our home is an 1895 Victorian in Western Massachusetts that I have restored over 25+ years.

We heat with 1950s era, cast iron, hot water radiators. They are heated by a high efficiency, natural gas powered, condensing boiler that is 10 years old. A boiler that is REALLY unreliable.

Impressed by the efficiency of heat pump technology, we would like to do something that is environmentally responsible when we replace our boiler that is near its life's end.

From what I read and from what local HVAC professionals tell me it seems that current air to water heat pumps for radiant heat are not very efficient. At least not yet.

If we moved to free-standing, wall mounted or even ducted mini splits we would face difficult, expensive installs with significant functional and aesthetic compromises. The radiators heat the house very evenly. They look nice - we've sandblasted and painted most of them, most are on custom bases that I have made,... Removing them and then replacing them in a house which has been restored inside and in period appropriate ways (ceilings back to full height, lots of remaining plaster, tin ceilings, ornate molding,...) seems like a huge, disruptive project that would detract from the enormous work we have done, may not give the nice heat that the radiators give and be more of a hassle than it will ever be worth.

Alternative perspectives, recommendations and/or alternatives would be much appreciated.

 

[user_12345a]

10 years is awfully short for a boiler.
The best you can do to use the rads is get a quality condensing boiler with outdoor reset.

I wouldn't do a air to water heatpump - too few people in north america to service them.

 

[supers05]

I'm not sure what you're impressed with. A COP of 2 or 3 with the average below that isn't very impressive. You'd probably need at least a 5 ton unit, probably more, and/or electric backup. (which you probably don't have the capacity for)

That all aside, with fossil fuels powering over 74% of your electricity, a HP is probably not the best idea. Considering your peak usage will likely be above baseload, count your usage to be generated with more natural gas. (which operate at between 25-60% efficiency, without accounting for line losses.)

So for more than 2 reasons, a HP would be a less environmentally friendly choice. Then to top it off, it's more expensive to install, operate and maintain. (you'll likely find it next to impossible to find someone to service it.)

Heat pumps are generally less reliable than natural gas appliances. They just have more things to go wrong, and fewer simple things to fix. (IE things that a DIYr could easily fix)

There's no reason why a good condensing boiler can't achieve upwards of 96% efficiency during warmer periods with an outdoor temperature sensor. How low the efficiency drops will depend on what water temperature is needed to keep your house warm at design temps.

 

[beenthere]

Stay with a gas fired boiler, whether condensing or not.

Also, have them change it to run the circ 24/7, and the thermostat only control the boiler firing or not.

Also, have them size the boiler to the home's heat loss, not the radiation in the home.

Primary/secondary piping is what you want at the boiler.

 

[jfleron]

Thank you for the helpful responses.

In response I have read about several of the issues that were raised.

I've become pretty competent with most systems and structures in my house, but I've tried to leave heating to professionals. It's not worked out well. With the new technology and energy challenges, it's hard to learn enough as a DIY homeowner.

I'm impressed because some friends get cooling with their new heat pump upgrades, others are buying into community solar or installing solar, COP of 3 sounds great compared to 97%, etc. Seeing more clearly now how dependent it is on the situation - and these things are not my situation.

Couldn't find anything about running the circulator 24/7. Would be happy to understand that nature of that recommendation.

Any recommendations on boiler brands would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

 

[beenthere]

Running the circ 24/7 gives a more even heat. Plus uses the least amount of fuel to heat the house. Some say the electric use offsets the fuel savings.

 

[SW Dweller]

This suggestion will be expensive. Have you insulated the hot water pipes?

Reading about improvements and purchasing them is 4 different things.

Really reliable says to me, time for a boiler man to check it out and tweak the process for max performance. Then investigate if the water and piping should have any improvements made to it.
Water can be pretty aggressive in old pipes. I have taken care of boilers in the 60K-80K BTU per hour range and we took them off line and drained and cleaned them every August. Always scale to be removed. especially in the pumps. Some times we threw away the pump and mated the old motor to a new pump. Yours is a bit smaller.

Why go to a heat pump? Why not a ground source heat pump?
Yes heat pumps are better than they used to be. for sure. What is your expected low temp? And for how many days. I just purchased mini split heat pumps but my design low temp is 22f degrees for hours not days. Desert dweller I am.

Rearch a contractor and have them tell you what they can and can not do with what you have.

 

[droopylee95]

Our home is an 1895 Victorian in Western Massachusetts that I have restored over 25+ years.

We heat with 1950s era, cast iron, hot water radiators. They are heated by a high efficiency, natural gas powered, condensing boiler that is 10 years old. A boiler that is REALLY unreliable.

Impressed by the efficiency of heat pump technology, we would like to do something that is environmentally responsible when we replace our boiler that is near its life's end.

From what I read and from what local HVAC professionals tell me it seems that current air to water heat pumps for radiant heat are not very efficient. At least not yet.

If we moved to free-standing, wall mounted or even ducted mini splits we would face difficult, expensive installs with significant functional and aesthetic compromises. The radiators heat the house very evenly. They look nice - we've sandblasted and painted most of them, most are on custom bases that I have made,... Removing them and then replacing them in a house which has been restored inside and in period appropriate ways (ceilings back to full height, lots of remaining plaster, tin ceilings, ornate molding,...) seems like a huge, disruptive project that would detract from the enormous work we have done, may not give the nice heat that the radiators give and be more of a hassle than it will ever be worth.

Alternative perspectives, recommendations and/or alternatives would be much appreciated.

In Massachusetts only heat I would have is hot water or steam radiators. 2nd option Gas forced air. Heatpump would suck. An you obviously have a Jack leg servicing your boiler there one of the more reliable units when serviced properly at minimum you should get 25 30 years.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[jfleron]

Several have mentioned that the boiler should have lasted longer. That was my expectation. A good, high efficiency, condensing boiler - it should last 25 years? Does this include these space saving, wall hung units? Local HVAC supply places are telling me their life spans are on the order of 15 years.

I have had somebody new in to give recommendations and have two more scheduled, although I like the guys I use.

I'm going to keep learning and will investigate the matter on excessive condensation that people have mentioned (whether from primary/secondary or needing a temp reset or...). But it is also the case that the boiler itself is part of the problem. Ray 200i boiler (by Mestek) made locally. I know first hand that lots of them were installed in my area and that there have been problems with many of them. In addition to service from the HVAC guys I use, twice engineers from the company have been out because I complained. Two years ago they were here for 6 hours and replaced a whole bunch of parts no charge saying that unit was basically brand new again. Last winter, in the middle of the omicron surge when you couldn't get parts anywhere, the igniter cracked and shut us down.

This is the reason that I was hoping for recommendations on brands. I want something with a good track record, that is from a larger company, where parts and support are more readily available - especially if the next one should last 25 years.

Appreciate the help. Would appreciate any other recommendations.

 

[supers05]

...
Water can be pretty aggressive in old pipes. I have taken care of boilers in the 60K-80K BTU per hour range and we took them off line and drained and cleaned them every August. .. .

You shouldn't be draining a closed loop regularly. You can add additives if scale is a problem. Dirt pockets are used for a reason. Fresh water (or water exposed to air) is the worse enemy to closed loop iron systems, and not very friendly to copper systems.

 

[supers05]

Several have mentioned that the boiler should have lasted longer. That was my expectation. A good, high efficiency, condensing boiler - it should last 25 years? Does this include these space saving, wall hung units? Local HVAC supply places are telling me their life spans are on the order of 15 years.

I have had somebody new in to give recommendations and have two more scheduled, although I like the guys I use.

I'm going to keep learning and will investigate the matter on excessive condensation that people have mentioned (whether from primary/secondary or needing a temp reset or...). But it is also the case that the boiler itself is part of the problem. Ray 200i boiler (by Mestek) made locally. I know first hand that lots of them were installed in my area and that there have been problems with many of them. In addition to service from the HVAC guys I use, twice engineers from the company have been out because I complained. Two years ago they were here for 6 hours and replaced a whole bunch of parts no charge saying that unit was basically brand new again. Last winter, in the middle of the omicron surge when you couldn't get parts anywhere, the igniter cracked and shut us down.

This is the reason that I was hoping for recommendations on brands. I want something with a good track record, that is from a larger company, where parts and support are more readily available - especially if the next one should last 25 years.

Appreciate the help. Would appreciate any other recommendations.

10-15 years is more typical for modern appliances. You may get longer with good maintenance on some models.

If you wanted to change, I'd recommend either Navien (cheaper but disposable) or Camus. (there's a US company that makes a very similar boiler around your area but I can't remember the name)

Navien makes a very decent product, and really try not to change their footprint. So when it's out of warranty, you simply replace it. Replacement is super easy when using a valve kit. Parts are very expensive but are often stocked at dedicated wholesalers.

Camus and similar are much more expensive, but the parts are cheaper and FAR easier to replace. They are far easier to clean the fire side. Descaling the water side is the same on all of these.

Both use spark ignitors which are more reliable IMHO.

 

[droopylee95]

Several have mentioned that the boiler should have lasted longer. That was my expectation. A good, high efficiency, condensing boiler - it should last 25 years? Does this include these space saving, wall hung units? Local HVAC supply places are telling me their life spans are on the order of 15 years.

I have had somebody new in to give recommendations and have two more scheduled, although I like the guys I use.

I'm going to keep learning and will investigate the matter on excessive condensation that people have mentioned (whether from primary/secondary or needing a temp reset or...). But it is also the case that the boiler itself is part of the problem. Ray 200i boiler (by Mestek) made locally. I know first hand that lots of them were installed in my area and that there have been problems with many of them. In addition to service from the HVAC guys I use, twice engineers from the company have been out because I complained. Two years ago they were here for 6 hours and replaced a whole bunch of parts no charge saying that unit was basically brand new again. Last winter, in the middle of the omicron surge when you couldn't get parts anywhere, the igniter cracked and shut us down.

This is the reason that I was hoping for recommendations on brands. I want something with a good track record, that is from a larger company, where parts and support are more readily available - especially if the next one should last 25 years.

Appreciate the help. Would appreciate any other recommendations.

What type/brand is it? Pictures?

Burnham or weil-mclain is what we use anytime we replace a boiler

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[supers05]

What type/brand is it? Pictures?

Burnham or weil-mclain is what we use anytime we replace a boiler

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Burnham was the name I couldn't remember, lol. Their K2 and aspen boilers look decent.

Weil-mclain was a decent reputation for oil and mid efficient NG boilers. I'm not impressed with their condensing boilers.

 

[jfleron]

Been out of town...

Boiler is a rAy 200i (made by Mestek). Picture is attached.

Questions:
1) One person I had in for a quote for a new boiler said it did not have the primary/secondary piping set up right. Can anybody confirm this from the picture? I see a circulator and pipe between the in-flow and out-flow. As I read about primary/secondary that seems what you want.
2) People have mentioned a temperature reset. This would be wired to a sensor outside? Other than power, the only wire to the boiler is the thermostat wire. If this is as important as the comments suggest, it gets me questioning the guys I use who I generally like and are well-regarded by others in the area.
3) Another person I had in noted that the basement was dusty from cat liter box and my nearby workshop. Intake for combustion is ambient air in the basement. There's a piece of hose over the intake and a sponge filter inside. I keep them both clean. Might this be part of the problem?
4) One of the quotes I got was for replacement was for a Navien. Other was for an NTI. Any experience with NTI equipment that anyone can share?

Thanks much.

 

[user_12345a]

For navien, look up pipe doctor - he's been documenting major premature heat exchanger failures on their tankless boilers and the company denies there's a problem and has been trying to sue him.

In order to benefit from a condensing boiler fully, need outdoor reset and i think many have it built in. Need low enough return water temps to condense.

 

[supers05]

For navien, look up pipe doctor - he's been documenting major premature heat exchanger failures on their tankless boilers and the company denies there's a problem and has been trying to sue him.

In order to benefit from a condensing boiler fully, need outdoor reset and i think many have it built in. Need low enough return water temps to condense.

He would have to prove it's not related to improve water flow or environmental conditions. None the less, I'm going to look at it.

 

[user_12345a]

He would have to prove it's not related to improve water flow or environmental conditions. None the less, I'm going to look at it.

My knowledge of boilers is more limited than furnaces, etc - so harder for me to tell if it's BS or not and understand the conditions that can cause premature failure.
He has a bunch of videos, some with him on the phone with navien.

 

[supers05]

Been out of town...

Boiler is a rAy 200i (made by Mestek). Picture is attached.

Questions:
1) One person I had in for a quote for a new boiler said it did not have the primary/secondary piping set up right. Can anybody confirm this from the picture? I see a circulator and pipe between the in-flow and out-flow. As I read about primary/secondary that seems what you want.
2) People have mentioned a temperature reset. This would be wired to a sensor outside? Other than power, the only wire to the boiler is the thermostat wire. If this is as important as the comments suggest, it gets me questioning the guys I use who I generally like and are well-regarded by others in the area.
3) Another person I had in noted that the basement was dusty from cat liter box and my nearby workshop. Intake for combustion is ambient air in the basement. There's a piece of hose over the intake and a sponge filter inside. I keep them both clean. Might this be part of the problem?
4) One of the quotes I got was for replacement was for a Navien. Other was for an NTI. Any experience with NTI equipment that anyone can share?

Thanks much. View attachment 713365

My knowledge of boilers is more limited than furnaces, etc - so harder for me to tell if it's BS or not and understand the conditions that can cause premature failure.
He has a bunch of videos, some with him on the phone with navien.

Environmental conditions like wood, cat litter dust, and drier lint can be devastating to a heat exchanger. The filter over the intake wouldn't be legal here if it didn't come with the boiler, but it's probably saving it a bit.

Outdoor reset is critical to improve the efficiency of the system when it's condensing. It'll come with the Navien and only requires an extra 2 wire cable to run outside.

I really don't like NTI.

 

[supers05]

Been out of town...

Boiler is a rAy 200i (made by Mestek). Picture is attached.

Questions:
1) One person I had in for a quote for a new boiler said it did not have the primary/secondary piping set up right. Can anybody confirm this from the picture? I see a circulator and pipe between the in-flow and out-flow. As I read about primary/secondary that seems what you want.
2) People have mentioned a temperature reset. This would be wired to a sensor outside? Other than power, the only wire to the boiler is the thermostat wire. If this is as important as the comments suggest, it gets me questioning the guys I use who I generally like and are well-regarded by others in the area.
3) Another person I had in noted that the basement was dusty from cat liter box and my nearby workshop. Intake for combustion is ambient air in the basement. There's a piece of hose over the intake and a sponge filter inside. I keep them both clean. Might this be part of the problem?
4) One of the quotes I got was for replacement was for a Navien. Other was for an NTI. Any experience with NTI equipment that anyone can share?

Thanks much. View attachment 713365

Primary loop does appear to be setup wrong. Can you sketch out the piping as best as you can. It doesn't matter if you don't understand what everything does, just label as best as you can, and post it.

 

[user_12345a]

Environmental conditions like wood, cat litter dust, and drier lint can be devastating to a heat exchanger. The filter over the intake wouldn't be legal here if it didn't come with the boiler, but it's probably saving it a bit.

Outdoor reset is critical to improve the efficiency of the system when it's condensing. It'll come with the Navien and only requires an extra 2 wire cable to run outside.

I believe the boilers in question were direct vented, combustion air from outside.

The issue is the outer seal of the heat exchanger leaking combustion gasses into the cabinet.