[JonCiccarone]

Hello all,

I'm a homeowner who enjoys doing electrical installs in my own home. I plan to pull a permit for an upcoming jetted bathtub install. While on the building department's website for my town, I looked at the section "when an electrical permit is required" just out of curiosity and I was blown away at how little you can legally do without an electrical permit.
I think it's ridiculous that if i have a cracked lampholder in my home that I have to pull a permit the replace it, or if I want to replace a circuit breaker, even with a lower amperage, that I have to pay $50 for a permit to legally do it.

When do most electricians actually pull electrical permits? Do you actually pull permits for the minuscule repairs like what I mentioned above? I'll be the first to admit that I have not done this for every repair I've done or outlet I've added to a circuit, now I'm wondering if that was a mistake. What do you guys do?

Thanks,
JC

 

[Daniel Holzman]

You are asking on a public forum if a licensed electrician follows the rules. What type of answer would you expect? I am a licensed professional engineer. If you asked a question as to whether I followed the rules, of course I would tell you that I faithfully follow all rules. To say otherwise would be a violation of the code of ethics that control my profession, I assume the same applies to electricians, plumbers, and any other licensed profession. If there were ever a situation where I skirted the rules, I certainly would not discuss that on a public forum, and you should not ask licensed electricians to discuss rules violations either in my opinion.

 

[Oso954]

The exact permit requirements often vary county to county and even town to town. You're lucky you are only working with one Building dept.

The permit on changing the lamp holder is a new one for me. I've never seen that one.

 

[gregzoll]

The exact permit requirements often vary county to county and even town to town. You're lucky you are only working with one Building dept.

The permit on changing the lamp holder is a new one for me. I've never seen that one.

All about the money, same as the Low Voltage requirements. I cannot see any code department getting that picky.

 

[ez2wire]

Strange, most jurisdictions allow homeowners to replace devices, lights, and other general maintenance items with out a permit.

In general usually only new wiring and large ticket items need a permit.

 

[gregzoll]

Strange, most jurisdictions allow homeowners to replace devices, lights, and other general maintenance items with out a permit.

In general usually only new wiring and large ticket items need a permit.

It is not most. There are a lot that require permits, along with some that are now going to needing permits for just about anything. Easy tax to collect.

 

[ez2wire]

It is not most. There are a lot that require permits, along with some that are now going to needing permits for just about anything. Easy tax to collect.

None of the four states- MD, VA, NC, or CA have required a permit for this small maintenence stuff. Mid west may be different

 

[joed]

Be thankful you can do your own work. If you live in Quebec, Canada you can not even do your own work. It all has to be done be an electrician.

 

[Rav]

I'm also a homeowner, certainly no electrician, living in Montgomery County, MD. Here, a permit is required for any electrical work, including by the homeowner. Per the MoCo DPS website "A Electrical Permit is required for work that involves installing, relocating, repairing, or maintaining any electrical wiring or device designed for conducting, consuming or converting electrical current." When I checked with DPS, they said that indeed if I as the homeowner wanted to do the work I intended to do, which is replacing light fixtures and upgrading receptacles to GFCI, I would not only need to get a permit, I would have to first take their Homeowners Electrical Exam (after signing a homeowner's affidavit), based on the 2008 NEC. Plus if there was ever any question by our homeowners insurance regarding a claim, they could deny the claim if the work was unpermitted. So I studied for and took the exam and got a permit for the work I'm doing. The permit says I may only wire lights, switches, and receptacles ("rough wiring"), and install lighting fixtures, and only in my own home. I'm glad I went through that process, even though it cost more than I thought it should, because I did learn a good amount in the process. It also made me realize how relatively little (electrical) I really know, compared to electricians who study and apprentice and work for years. Thank goodness for this group!

 

[Syberia]

Permits? What are permits?

 

[Msradell]

At the Ray pointed out certain States/Cities go way overboard on permitting requirements, it also appears that Canada is the same way. Many other States/Cities are much more reasonable in their permitting requirements. Most places don't require permits for minor work such as changing switches or receptacles nor require them for changing light fixtures. Some places even go farther than that before permits are required.

There's really no explanation why some areas are so strict and others aren't. Some of it is quite likely due to them trying to protect Union Jobs as demonstrated by the requirements in Chicago but the majority of it is absolutely senseless.

 

[gregzoll]

It is all about the money Msradell. Easy tax collection for more wasteful spending by municipalities. With this being one of the most used web forums, it is very easy to walk someone through how to do this kind of work. The big issue is that they think that everyone is going to shock theirself replacing a light fixture or outlet.

You go through more Red Tape in the military to get a job done, then you do pulling a permit in the county you live in. There is always some division that gets upset when you need to cut a load center to work on it, just because they want to sit in their shop and watch tv after work hours, even though your day started at 6 am and will not end, until you get the job done early in the morning, then turn around and start your work day all over again a few hours later.

 

[ddawg16]

Hello all,

I'm a homeowner who enjoys doing electrical installs in my own home. I plan to pull a permit for an upcoming jetted bathtub install. While on the building department's website for my town, I looked at the section "when an electrical permit is required" just out of curiosity and I was blown away at how little you can legally do without an electrical permit.
I think it's ridiculous that if i have a cracked lampholder in my home that I have to pull a permit the replace it, or if I want to replace a circuit breaker, even with a lower amperage, that I have to pay $50 for a permit to legally do it.

When do most electricians actually pull electrical permits? Do you actually pull permits for the minuscule repairs like what I mentioned above? I'll be the first to admit that I have not done this for every repair I've done or outlet I've added to a circuit, now I'm wondering if that was a mistake. What do you guys do?

Thanks,
JC

Do you by any chance live in Chicago?

 

[JonCiccarone]

Thank you all for your honest replies.

Do you by any chance live in Chicago?

No, I live in southern New Hampshire.

 

[BT5150]

I'd also suggest changing your log in name, not sure how many "Jon Ciccarone" 's are out there, but you never know when big brother is watching, maybe "Big Jon Stud" or whatever you want to be on the net!

Seriously though, here in WI everywhere I've dealt with requires permits for nearly ANYTHING electrical and you must be a licensed master electrician with whatever requirements the state has for operating an electrician's business to get a permit, plus sometimes the individual cities may add an additional "city license" for work, which in Milwaukee for one they also require any contractor to be city licensed to pull construction permits.

Just like others have said, I see this as two things one to make money for the cities and two a push from the unions to monopolize this work (under the guise of safety and I'll admit that is a legit concern with electrical work!) and had this confirmed to me by a city official when I asked at a luncheon about these requirements and how at the same time we kept hearing story after story (obviously this issue was being pushed by the mayor's office) about the MANY empty homes in the city of Milwaukee, both the ones now owned by the city through tax foreclosure as well as the many owned by the banks through judicial foreclosure and Milwaukee has a very diverse price range, in the spots close to the Lake Michigan shoreline, many homes and high rise condos can go for well over a million dollars, all the way down through many middle class areas and the poorest areas where even a beautiful single fam home is lucky to sell for 50 grand. I asked about this because of course the vast majority of these homes the city is trying to sell and has no takers for are in the low priced areas, have been stripped of metals, etc and its all about the repair cost now. You could sell them for $1 (and some have) and if its going to take at least $80k to fix up a home where the most it could be worth is $50k, who the heck is buying that place, whether its an owner occupant (their preferred buyers) or an investor, you're going to be 30 grand in the hole no matter what in that example and that's a common case, many of these places have nowhere to go but to the bulldozer!

I asked if the city could relax the permit requirements at least for owner occupants and if they really wanted to sell these rapidly deteriorating empty homes that help ruin neighborhoods and make life hell for neighbors who care about their blocks and was told it was a state issue, that the IBEW had pushed it through the legislature. I later learned that in at least one suburb, that's not the case and that homeowners CAN pull permits but have many hoops to jump through.

The real concern though for most people should be liability, far more than any worries about getting "busted" by the city. If your home is sold and you've done a bit or a lot of unpermitted work and it burns down and someone dies, you're talking about a 7 figure lawsuit and homeowners ins will investigate the hell out of it and if they find a way out, trust me they will take that out! I'd also be concerned even if YOU do all the work just right (after all its not rocket science) but then maybe the new owner thinks he/she knows it all and starts adding on to your unpermitted work and their shoddy work burns the house down, how in the world will you prove that YOUR unpermitted work was done just right and the new owner is at fault, not you? If that's even possible, I'm sure it would be very expensive!

 

[sparky48]

For something as trivial as a lampholder no permit would be needed in our area. Replacing a breaker may be an issue. Cities have to survive and the cost of permits help them with that issue. They walk in take a look around and the next thing you know your taxes just went up.

 

[gregzoll]

BT5150 I use my own name. I do use aliases on the computer forums. I have no problem with someone searching the web and trying to link me with something, since it does not affect me and anything I am doing, is going to be legal anyways. Especially that my area allows homeowners to do their own work as long as they follow the local & NEC rules.

 

[gregzoll]

For something as trivial as a lampholder no permit would be needed in our area. Replacing a breaker may be an issue. Cities have to survive and the cost of permits help them with that issue. They walk in take a look around and the next thing you know your taxes just went up.

That is not were they are hitting everyone. They are seeing that someone did improvements like a new roof or siding in some areas and jacking their taxes up.

I had to double check to see if it would raise our assessed value when we put the new siding on. It did not, which in turn our property taxes went down this year in Illinois, because of the raise that was enacted when Quinn was in office, expired.

Now the biggest area that you cannot get away with is decks and porches, no matter where you live. Chicago has been really adamant in going after as many property owners inside the Chicago limits to get them on improper or failing porches.

 

[MrElectricianTV]

Hello all,

I'm a homeowner who enjoys doing electrical installs in my own home. I plan to pull a permit for an upcoming jetted bathtub install. While on the building department's website for my town, I looked at the section "when an electrical permit is required" just out of curiosity and I was blown away at how little you can legally do without an electrical permit.
I think it's ridiculous that if i have a cracked lampholder in my home that I have to pull a permit the replace it, or if I want to replace a circuit breaker, even with a lower amperage, that I have to pay $50 for a permit to legally do it.

When do most electricians actually pull electrical permits? Do you actually pull permits for the minuscule repairs like what I mentioned above? I'll be the first to admit that I have not done this for every repair I've done or outlet I've added to a circuit, now I'm wondering if that was a mistake. What do you guys do?

Thanks,
JC

In my state, simple repairs and replacements do not require an electrical permit.

 

[pdxoregon]

Out AHC has not got totally into "permits is a way to pay for (anything else that has nothing to do with safety etc)" but will, part of my water and sewer bill goes to the city buying property to resell at a loss to established developers.

A beef I have is not the cost of having someone do the work, but sadly I've seen quite a bit of really crappy work done by "Master Electricians", it maybe code but for $80-100 hour one would expect a bit better. Not all are that way but things are so profit driven spending that extra 1 minute per duplex to dress wires a bit better is a thing of the past.