[dave_80]

I have a Federal Pioneer (Stab lok) 100amp main panel.
The panel has two neutral bus bars on each side but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable. Is it possible that the panel itself acts as a conductor for the ground?

 

[codeone]

Yes and this is allowed for grounding conductors but not grounded (neutral) conductors!

 

[spark plug]

I have a Federal Pioneer (Stab lok) 100amp main panel.
The panel has two neutral bus bars on each side but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable. Is it possible that the panel itself acts as a conductor for the ground?

I don't know what the Code for Grounding Service Entrance is in Canada, buit I hope you know what the definition of "Main/Service (equipment) is, A/O Sub panel, etc. Anything past a Main switch, Including a panel is not considered Service equipment. And the NEUTRAL is NOT supposed to be GROUNDED!!

 

[codeone]

. And the NEUTRAL is NOT supposed to be GROUNDED!!

You need to go back and read Article 200 of the NEC.

The neutral as most people call it is actually a grounded circuit conductor!
It carries current most of the time. And is bonded or grounded intentionally at the service therefore called a grounded conductor.

 

[AllanJ]

Neutral conductors may not be connected to ground wires / box framework / conduits / other grounded objects downstream of the first main disconnect (switch or breaker).

 

[Speedy Petey]

And the NEUTRAL is NOT supposed to be GROUNDED!!

I think this is just a poor choice of words. I think he means it should not be bonded (to the grounding conductor).

 

[spark plug]

I think this is just a poor choice of words. I think he means it should not be bonded (to the grounding conductor).

Yes; But he missed the MAIN POINT. ("Codeone"). Which is; that, at any point after the main disconnect, the NEUTRAL may not be Bonded/Grounded. Therefore, as was stated that there is a Disconnect Switch ahead of the "Panel" it (the Panel) is not considered a MAIN panel and it MAY NOT be Bonded/Grounded;:yes::no: (The ultimate symbol of Confusion)!

 

[codeone]

No did not miss the main point. Most people and electricians do not understand what the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR is, They call it a neutral in the industry, however it is almost never neutral, only in multiwire circuits can it be neutral. It is a CURRENT carrying conductor that is bonded to the Ground in the main service. The NEC recognizes it and calls it a Grounded Circuit Conductor. Neutral implies that it does not carry current. If it did not carry current and shorted to the equipment grounding conductor it would not trip a breaker or blow a fuse.

 

[codeone]

I think this is just a poor choice of words. I think he means it should not be bonded (to the grounding conductor).

'
I think this is the most approate reply.
Sorry if I get to techenical for you. Will try to keep that in mind when replying. Still dont need miss information on a board such as this.

 

[spark plug]

No did not miss the main point. Most people and electricians do not understand what the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR is, They call it a neutral in the industry, however it is almost never neutral, only in multiwire circuits can it be neutral. It is a CURRENT carrying conductor that is bonded to the Ground in the main service. The NEC recognizes it and calls it a Grounded Circuit Conductor. Neutral implies that it does not carry current. If it did not carry current and shorted to the equipment grounding conductor it would not trip a breaker or blow a fuse.

Yes. The NEUTRAL IS a current carrying Conductor. But the essence of my point is; That ANYTHING past the FIRST DISCONNECT is NOT considered SERVICE EQUIPMENT and CAN NOT BE BONDED (as in a Subpanel. Albeit that this is your first Branch Circuit panel)! (I think)!:yes::yes:!

 

[codeone]

but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable. Is it possible that the panel itself acts as a conductor for the ground?

In the original posters question he was asking about the grounding bars in the panel not being interconnected, only being attached to the panel, his concern was that the panel would be a current path if there was a short to one of the equipment grounding conductors and weather this was the right way to have them hooked up.

In my first assured him that the code did allow this, but did not allow the grounded conductor (aka neutral to be hooked up that way).

I agree totally with you about bonding the grounded conductor past the service. The post I made the remarks about was a poor choice of wording in my opinion, sorry if it disturbed you. And I will try to remember to phrase things so DIY will be able to understand without complications in the future. Not my first Rodeo!:cowboy:

 

[Stubbie]

but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable.

I would like to see a pic of this ....... Though it is true that the metal of the panel serves as a ground fault path in that it is bonded metal. ... I have never seen 6 short grounding bars installed in a panel. It would be important that the correct mounting of those grounding bars took place ... I'm betting they were not. These are obviously non factory ground bars ... at least some of them are not...:wink:

For those interested the violation that 'codeone' is speaking about is 2008 NEC 200.2 (B)

I also think Dave might be talking about a grounding electrode conductor being connected to one of those 6 grounding bars and not an egc.

He is saying 100 amp 'main panel' whether it is service equipment or not is not determined IMO.

 

[journeymanj]

Dave80, I think the best advice I can offer is to have your panel replaced, you have a federal pioneer which is a federal pacific here in the US. these are widely known for causing fires, the breakers will quit working & you have no way to know when they do.fha wont put A loan on a house with these & a lot of insurers wont cover a house with one. heres a link with more info. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FederalPioneer.htm

 

[Speedy Petey]

Dave80, I think the best advice I can offer is to have your panel replaced, you have a federal pioneer which is a federal pacific here in the US. these are widely known for causing fires, the breakers will quit working & you have no way to know when they do.fha wont put A loan on a house with these & a lot of insurers wont cover a house with one. heres a link with more info. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FederalPioneer.htm

Then WHY is Federal PIONEER still used and installed in new construction to this day in Canada???
I thought F Pioneer was not the same thing as our old FPE. That is what my Canadian friends tell me.

 

[journeymanj]

Then WHY is Federal PIONEER still used and installed in new construction to this day in Canada???
I thought F Pioneer was not the same thing as our old FPE. That is what my Canadian friends tell me.

I couldnt tell you exactly, I just heard the dreaded stab lock, ive replaced dozens of these in my area & know how bad the us version is, so I searched the canadian version on the net & the sites pretty much said the older (pre 97) versions arent much better & enough is not known about the newer versions to call them safe. I know what I would do if it was in my house. ps my old house had the us version so I put in A sqare d QO

 

[williswires]

... as was stated that there is a Disconnect Switch ahead of the "Panel" it (the Panel) is not considered a MAIN panel and it MAY NOT be Bonded/Grounded

The OP didn't say there was a disconnect switch ahead of the panel. We don't know yet...

 

[kbsparky]

Panels sold in Canada apparently have equipment grounding bars pre-installed in them. I took a look at some boxes when I was there over the holidays.

It's no surprise to me that Federal Pioneer boxes have them as well. :whistling2:

 

[Stubbie]

Panels sold in Canada apparently have equipment grounding bars pre-installed in them. I took a look at some boxes when I was there over the holidays

.

I wasn't aware of that but do you think they would have 6 short ones installed in the panel?

 

[Red Squirrel]

That's kinda an odd configuration, I'd be curious to see a pic of that. I have a Federal Pioneer Stab-Lok as well but it only has two bars (one for ground and one for neutral). Mine is setup as a "sub panel" though, since I have a main disconnect switch beside it.

 

[spark plug]

Then WHY is Federal PIONEER still used and installed in new construction to this day in Canada???
I thought F Pioneer was not the same thing as our old FPE. That is what my Canadian friends tell me.

Let me put my Two cents in. When I resided (a fancy way of saying, "I Used To Live") in (Montreal, Que.) Canada, Pioneer/Federal was considered a high quality breaker, and it was! But I read a recent piece of info. from Inspectapedia.com; that some lines of the Pioneer Breakers, Not the Panel, as is the case with FPE Breakers and Panels in the USA, were having problems, and are being replaced. The point is that there always was a distinction between Pioneer, Canada and regular FPE products.:yes::no: (Ultimate symbol of Confusion)!