[jayp]

As I type this I'm wondering if anyone is going to laugh but sometimes people will tell me one thing and I'll believe another until the whole topic becomes cloudy.

I went to pick up some sheets of hardibacker for a wall tiling project in a bathroom shower nook and the guy in the flooring section proceeds to tell me that I do not need to apply a vapor barrier to the stud wall with hardibacker as long as I tape and mortar all my seams. It sounds plausible but I don't know... He said it would trap moisture between the backerboard and the plastic. Likewise, I told him that one of the shower walls is an exterior wall and he said to use unfaced insulation so as not to trap moisture between the backboard and the paper on the inside face of the insulation.

Is there truth to this or should I disregard and use plastic? I have some 4 mil clear plastic I was thinking of using.

And, I've just been reading that some people are against applying hardibacker directly to studs. Sometimes I see people saying to use greenboard first, then backer. My studs are 16" OC and the backer I have is 1/4 " thick. Will this be sturdy enough?

 

[Termite]

The guy at your supplier is full of it. You need to install a vapor barrier to the studs at the very least, and you must alway mud and tape the seams with fiberglass cement backerboard tape. Backerboard is water-permeable, and will not stop moisture from entering the wall cavity.

The best practice is to waterproof the face of the backerboard with a product such as redguard or proguard HDG. With that, you can skip the vapor barrier.

 

[jayp]

thought so

He told me Hardiebacker isn't water permeable so I shouldn't install a barrier because it would create a "mold sandwich" between the plastic and the backerboard. Would 4 mil plastic be a decent vapor barrier? The Hardiebacker brochure says not to apply waterproofing to the face of it because it will not allow the thinset to adhere properly.

 

[Knucklez]

for water area like tub/shower you should put 15lb felt on the studs and then the hardibacker. screen & mud all seems.

 

[AtlanticWBConst.]

The person you spoke to at the store, is giving out wrong advice.

Cement board is in no way, shape, or form....any kind of a vapor barrier, nor is it rated as such. Thus, it cannot be a "membrane" in a vapor chamber, that the person you spoke to, insinuated.

As an example, from Durock's website (http://www.usg.com/navigate.do?resource=/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/products/prod_details/DUROCK_Brand_Cement_Board.htm):
"Durock (Cement)Board is "Water durable" - will not rot, warp, delaminate, or disintegrate when exposed to water."

Cement board, or fiber-cement board, will not breakdown with moisture, like the way sheetrock does. In that way, it is superior. However, like all cementitious material, the product is water permeable, it will take-in/absorb moisture, when it comes in contact with it. This will then be transferred to other surfaces that it comes in contact with. Thus, the need, for a good vapor/moisture barrier, and as suggested, a complete sealing of the installed board's seams themselves.

FWIW: Even Hardiplank fiber-cement siding board requires a good house-wrap (breath-able moisture barrier) behind it, when installed onto homes.

...And, I've just been reading that some people are against applying hardibacker directly to studs. Sometimes I see people saying to use greenboard first, then backer. My studs are 16" OC and the backer I have is 1/4 " thick. Will this be sturdy enough?

1/4" Cement board is installed onto sub-flooring, for tile/stone installations. It is not for walls.

1/2" cement board, is attached directly to the studs, and it is never attached over greenboard.

 

[JenkinsHB]

He told me Hardiebacker isn't water permeable so I shouldn't install a barrier because it would create a "mold sandwich" between the plastic and the backerboard.

so he's recommending making a "mold sandwich" between your hardie board and your exterior sheathing? bad idea. seal that shower as tight as a frogs behind.

 

[WallyPoppa]

Bring back the HardiBoard. Exchange for 1/2 inch DenShield. Its impervious to water, needs no vapor barrier (built-in) and is lighter to handle and really and truly scores and snaps easily. It's a Georgia-Pacific product, part of their line of mold resistant wall and tile backer board.

 

[Termite]

DensShield is a good product, but isn't a revolutionary replacement for cementitious backerboard. No need to take the wonderboard back unless you want to.

 

[jayp]

I took the 1/4 back

I returned the 1/4" Hardie and got 1/2" Hardie. I stapled 4 mil plastic all the way to the floor, installed my new tub, and now I'm gonna attach the Hardiebacker. I had to compensate for the tub lip with some kind of furring because it's about 1/8" thick so I cut strips of heavy roofing felt and stapled them to the studs. I tried to table saw some 2x pieces but they were too brittle to screw the backerboard through. The roofing felt was a weird idea but it cut easily and did a great job allowing a transition from the 2x4 walls to the tub lip!

 

[Termite]

Good decision, and good idea on the felt shims.

 

[AtlanticWBConst.]

FWIW: We always furr out the shower walls to accomodate the tub lip.

Good job figuring that one out on your own. :thumbsup:

 

[toddbailey]

Taking this question a bit further, do I need a vapor barrier for a tile flooring project? (in a dining room, kitchen & foyer)

Home depot experts(?) suggested it as optional.

If I don't what are possible issues later?

I'm installing over plywood and also I needed more sub-floor stiffness. Manuf home ya know.

Starting out with 5/8 plywood, on 2 ft centers, 2x6 joists with 60 inch spans.
A bit narrow, perhaps; but I added a a couple of 12 ft 4x6 center beams with supports in 3 places w/ 4x4 posts & pier blocks, other wise a bouncy 10 ft span would exist.

I put down 2 layers of the 1/2 hardiebacker, making sure all the seams were staggered. I also used screws with 12 in spacing and around seams. also made sure I was hitting joists with 2 1/2 inch screws,
everything else were 1 5/8 in.

of course I used tape and mortar to seam the boards together.

the top layer (hardiebacker) was thin set to the first layer of hardiebacker and more screws were also used. No thin set was used for the plywood and backer board layer


Opinions on my install so far?

 

[Termite]

Taking this question a bit further, do I need a vapor barrier for a tile flooring project? (in a dining room, kitchen & foyer)

Home depot experts(?) suggested it as optional.

If I don't what are possible issues later?

I'm installing over plywood and also I needed more sub-floor stiffness. Manuf home ya know.

Starting out with 5/8 plywood, on 2 ft centers, 2x6 joists with 60 inch spans.
A bit narrow, perhaps; but I added a a couple of 12 ft 4x6 center beams with supports in 3 places w/ 4x4 posts & pier blocks, other wise a bouncy 10 ft span would exist.

I put down 2 layers of the 1/2 hardiebacker, making sure all the seams were staggered. I also used screws with 12 in spacing and around seams. also made sure I was hitting joists with 2 1/2 inch screws,
everything else were 1 5/8 in.

of course I used tape and mortar to seam the boards together.

the top layer (hardiebacker) was thin set to the first layer of hardiebacker and more screws were also used. No thin set was used for the plywood and backer board layer


Opinions on my install so far?

You made a big mistake using two layers of hardibacker. With 24"oc joists your floor sheathing is not stiff enough for installation of most tile, even if you've got the joists supported to limit or eliminate their deflection. Under foot you've done nothing to eliminate the sag of the floor sheathing and backerboard between the joists...That equals cracked grout and maybe even cracked tile.

The addition of backerboard lends no additional stiffness to the floor. Ideally you'd have added a layer of 1/2" plywood (or even 3/4") and used 1/4" backerboard under the tile.

You can apply the backerboard directly to the plywood using thinset, and that is the normal installation method. The wood may suck a little water out of the thinset the backerboard is set in but it usually won't cause problems.

 

[Gary in WA]

In the earlier post isn't the plastic on the exterior wall supposed to go down over the tub's drip edge? Any water condensing now will rot the floor under the tub at the bottom of the wall. The plastic would not be necessary below the tub lip on an exterior wall as the tub would act as the vapor barrier. Or what? Be safe, G

 

[Grimace]

I returned the 1/4" Hardie and got 1/2" Hardie. I stapled 4 mil plastic all the way to the floor, installed my new tub, and now I'm gonna attach the Hardiebacker. I had to compensate for the tub lip with some kind of furring because it's about 1/8" thick so I cut strips of heavy roofing felt and stapled them to the studs. I tried to table saw some 2x pieces but they were too brittle to screw the backerboard through. The roofing felt was a weird idea but it cut easily and did a great job allowing a transition from the 2x4 walls to the tub lip!

thats not correct is it? (same question as GBAR)

 

[JRA773]

Listen to the guy at the flooring store!

JAYP, the guy at the flooring store knows more than most of the people given you bad advice here! YOU DON'T NEED A VAPOR BARRIER WITH HARDIBACKER. It is not traditional cement board! Many of these people that replied to you here are saying they have the same characteristics and they don't! Hardibacker doesn't need a vapor barrier or waterproofing except you do need to tape and thinset the joints. Go right to the video from Hardibacker on Youtube and they'll show you how to do it properly. I only use Hardibacker on my jobs and it's been great. Less fuss and better performance. There are a lot of opinions out there, but remember most of them are coming from people that don't know what they're talking about.

 

[JazMan]

JRA773,

No wonder you didn't use a real name, you are the one that has no idea what you're talking about. You don't know, but you don't know that you don't know.:yes: So you might be forgiven if you study and learn.

Hardie installation on wet walls require some type of vapor barrier just like any other backerboard. The barrier is to protect the wall cavity. Many of us like to use a surface waterproofing instead of plastic or tarpaper on the studs. I think a surface membrane is much better.

You obviously haven't had the time yet to read the Hardie directions, or maybe you missed it. You should have someone read them to you, especially the part that says;

3 | - Attach HardieBacker cement board to framing
• See applicable building codes regarding vapor barrier requirements.

Go here: http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/pdf/backer-install-us.pdf
Pay little attention to videos that gloss over details, actually most don't mention the important stuff to make it look easier.

I'm not gonna bother to read all those old posts that go back close to 5 years. I will if it will help though.

So, you have your assignment, report back when you're ready.

Jaz

 

[toddbailey]

My 2 cents plus tax. Unless you are doing a bathroom or kitchen wall next to a water source such as a sink, tub/shower using a vapor barrier is optional, it is recommended however to use a vapour barrier in any bathroom, utility room (containing a washer /dryer) or kitchen. A floor or wall in a hallway, bedroom, entry way a vapour barrier is optional and usually unnecessary. It's best to contact a local governmental building agency and enquire on building codes. Whats true in one state may not apply in another

 

[JazMan]

Where else would you use concrete backer if not a tub surround or stall shower for a wall application? You're supposed to apply a vapor barrier either on the studs or better yet on the surface of the backer. It's not always done I know, but there's lots of things done wrong out there and there's lots of hacks doing work. Not following the rules does not mean an automatic failure though.

Why do you mention a floor? Floors do not require a vapor barrier.

Jaz

 

[toddbailey]

I used hardi-backer over my traditional particle board floor before I put down a tile floor.