[njitgrad]

I am having a lighting issue that I can't for the life of me figure out.

I have four recessed BR40 light fixtures in my family room. Two are on one LED dimmer, and two are on another LED dimmer (in the same electrical box).

I have tried three different types of LED bulbs. Before I started using LED bulbs I never had a problem with incandescent bulbs. Once I switched to LEDs I have had nothing but one problem after another.

The Philips bulbs that I initially purchased did not flicker, but they made a clicking sound. Philips eventually reimbursed me once I sent the bulbs back.

With Hyperikon bulbs I experienced flickering so I returned them to Amazon.

With the current set of bulbs (Great Eagle 3000K dimmable bulbs) I still experience random flickering at different dimming levels. Their tech support recommended replacing my dimmers with LED dimmers which I did about two months ago to no avail.

It should be noted that the problem only occurs in my family room. When I swap the flickering bulb with an identical one from a different room the flickering ceases until the next day when another bulb in the family room starts to flicker.

Any advice on how to pinpoint the problem would be appreciated.

 

[Oso954]

You should check the compatibility between your dimmer and your bulbs.
The better dimmer manufactures independently test there products with bulbs on the market.
Here is Lutron's list.
http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/3682066_CFL_LED_Bulb_list.pdf

I didn't see Great Eagle on it. So, either Lutron has not tested them, or they failed to meet Lutron's standards.
Note that lutron lists each dimmer or other device separately. You check by a specific model as some bulbs pass on one and fail on another.

The other thing that might be worth trying, is put all 4 cans on a single dimmer. If you are down near or below the minimum wattage for your specific dimmer, increasing the load might make the bulbs perform more reliably.

 

[njitgrad]

You should check the compatibility between your dimmer and your bulbs.
The better dimmer manufactures independently test there products with bulbs on the market.
Here is Lutron's list.
http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/3682066_CFL_LED_Bulb_list.pdf

I didn't see Great Eagle on it. So, either Lutron has not tested them, or they failed to meet Lutron's standards.
Note that lutron lists each dimmer or other device separately. You check by a specific model as some bulbs pass on one and fail on another.

The other thing that might be worth trying, is put all 4 cans on a single dimmer. If you are down near or below the minimum wattage for your specific dimmer, increasing the load might make the bulbs perform more reliably.

Great Eagle provided me with a list of compatible LED dimmers. I selected Lutron (in fact the exact model they recommended). I don't want to tie all 4 cans into a single dimmer because two lights are over the couch and two are over the TV. I want to be able to control them independently when watching TV at night but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Oso954]

Between any bulb MFG and Lutron, I side with Lutron. They aren't trying to sell me bulbs.

If you don't like the reconnecting the 4LEDs together, trade out one LED on each dimmer for an incandescent bulb. See if that settles the remaining LED down.

If you don't want to perform either of those as a test, you are ignorring a possible cause.

You can also call Lutron Tech support. They answer the phone 24/7. See what they have to say about your problem.

 

[njitgrad]

If you don't like the reconnecting the 4LEDs together, trade out one LED on each dimmer for an incandescent bulb. See if that settles the remaining LED down.

If you don't want to perform either of those as a test, you are ignorring a possible cause.

What is your theory behind this suggestion? The flickering I get is random, mostly when the lights are first turned on. Any of the four bulbs flickers at any given time.

I tried EcoSmart bulbs purchased from HD yesterday and they were much worse than the Great Eagle bulbs. The manufacturer of Great Eagle bulbs sent me a pack of four replacement bulbs but I had the same issue with those as well.

I will be trying bulbs recommended by Lutron next. I have the DVCL-153P-WH dimmers.

 

[Arrow3030]

Some dimmers and controls have a minimum load requirement to operate properly. Two LED'S might not be enough. A maestro wireless might work better too.

 

[njitgrad]

According to Lutron tech support I may be experiencing "common neutral crosstalk" between the dimmers.

I think I may have confirmed this behavior by doing the following quick test....

1) I turned on one pair of lights...I noticed no flickering after about 20 minutes of constantly being on.

2) Then I turned on the second pair of lights. About a minute later the first pair of lights started to flicker every once in a while.

3) After another minute or so I turned off the second pair of lights and noticed the flickering from the first pair of lights cease.

If this really is my problem, two solutions exist (according to Lutron)....none of which I find practical.

The only practical options that I think I have are:

1) Try a different brand dimmer switch. Maybe it's only Lutron switches that have this problem.

2) Remove one of the dimmers and connect all four lights to a single dimmer and buy a 2-Gang 1-Blank wallplate. That should eliminate the conflicting dimmer issue. Not ideal to have all four lights on one switch but something I can live with.

3) Go back to incandescent lighting. Put incandescent dimmers back in and incandescent bulbs back in.

 

[Oso954]

2) you can buy blank decora device plates to fill unwanted any unwanted holes in multi gang plates.

 

[njitgrad]

2) you can buy blank decora device plates to fill unwanted any unwanted holes in multi gang plates.

Thanks, I updated my thread while you were replying. I found these plates in the mean time. Not decorative but they will work.

 

[Oso954]

I didn't say decorative, but decora. It is a name for that style of plate. If you check the Amazon listing in your last post, you will see that they refer to it as a Decora/GFCI device wallplate. (GFCI being another common name for it).

 

[njitgrad]

I tried to reproduce the test performed earlier today. When I turned on the first set of lights they started to flicker within a minute even though the other set of lights was not turned on. I don't know if this new development means that connecting all 4 lights to one dimmer switch is the way to go after all. I guess there's only one way to find out. All I know is that I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to find an answer to my problem.

 

[njitgrad]

I tried to reproduce the test performed earlier today. When I turned on the first set of lights they started to flicker within a minute even though the other set of lights was not turned on. I don't know if this new development means that connecting all 4 lights to one dimmer switch is the way to go after all. I guess there's only one way to find out. All I know is that I'm getting extremely frustrated trying to find an answer to my problem.

Reproducing the conditions last evening resulted in disproving the common neutral theory (at least initially). Even when only one set of lights was on I would see the flickering. Earlier this would only happen when all four lights were on.

On a hunch, I decided to physically remove one switch anyway and connect all four lights to the remaining switch. As of today I have yet to see any flickering. So maybe the issue WAS with common neutral after all. I will report back I was wrong again.

 

[njitgrad]

On a hunch, I decided to physically remove one switch anyway and connect all four lights to the remaining switch. As of today I have yet to see any flickering. So maybe the issue WAS with common neutral after all. I will report back I was wrong again.

Unfortunately my positive results were short-lived. Even with all four lights physically connected to a single dimmer, I still noticed flickering the next day. I have since tried the other dimmer (which I previously removed) to see if just one of the dimmers was defective. Unfortunately I get flickering from both dimmers even when used independently.

Back to the drawing boards.

On a side note, based on my conversation last with the Lutron tech support, they indicated that they would be sending me a new 3rd generation dimmer (of the same Diva series) that is not even on the market yet. It should be arriving this week. If that fails in the same manner, the next thing to try is a different brand dimmer like Leviton perhaps.

 

[njitgrad]

On a side note, based on my conversation last with the Lutron tech support, they indicated that they would be sending me a new 3rd generation dimmer (of the same Diva series) that is not even on the market yet. It should be arriving this week. If that fails in the same manner, the next thing to try is a different brand dimmer like Leviton perhaps.

The new dimmer arrived yesterday. I wired it up late last night and although it seemed to work for an hour or so flicker-free before I went to bed I noticed some flickering today.

Now what?

 

[FrodoOne]

The new dimmer arrived yesterday. I wired it up late last night and although it seemed to work for an hour or so flicker-free before I went to bed I noticed some flickering today.

Now what?

I have noted your posts over the last several weeks but, as an outsider, until now I have refrained from making comments.

You have not specified if the "flicker" is
on an intermittent basis
regular/consistent
at only "intermediate" dimmer levels
at "maximum" levels or
at both "intermediate" and "maximum" levels.

I could suggest that you connect a small (15 W) incandescent "dummy load" in parallel with your LEDs. If the "flicker" still occurs AND the the "flicker" affects the incandescent lamp as well, it would indicate that the problem is within the dimmer(s).

However, have you thought of installing a "Load Correction Device" - designed for this situation?

While I have not been able to access information concerning such devices designed for the (120 V) North American market, http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/Files/Brochures/W0001507.pdf
http://www.cleverhome.com.au/manuals/Clipsal-31LCDA-Load-Corrective-Device-installation.pdf
http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/Files/Brochures/A0000268.pdf
indicate the availability of such devices designed for operation at 240 V.

I strongly suspect that Schneider Electric, and other companies, may have similar products available for the (120 V) North American market.

 

[njitgrad]

I have noted your posts over the last several weeks but, as an outsider, until now I have refrained from making comments.

Thank you for your input.

You have not specified if the "flicker" is
on an intermittent basis
regular/consistent
at only "intermediate" dimmer levels
at "maximum" levels or
at both "intermediate" and "maximum" levels.

The flicker is intermittent, experienced at all dimming levels intermediate/maximum/no dimming,

I could suggest that you connect a small (15 W) incandescent "dummy load" in parallel with your LEDs. If the "flicker" still occurs AND the the "flicker" affects the incandescent lamp as well, it would indicate that the problem is within the dimmer(s).

The flicker originates with one bulb typically. When I replace that bulb with one from an adjacent room, then another bulb starts to flicker, and so forth and so on. I don't think they make 15W incandescent BR40 bulbs, do they? Are you suggesting removing one of the four LED bulbs are replacing it with a 15 W incandescent bulb?

However, have you thought of installing a "Load Correction Device" - designed for this situation?

My understanding is the LCDs are the size of bricks and not practical in my case.

 

[Piedmont]

You sound a lot like me. I had humming LED's on dimmers, then I swapped my dimmers out for LED compatible ones, swapped them out again for ones that have an LED adjustment on them. My issue's were following:

Buzzing using LED's on non-LED compatible dimmers. I swapped out the dimmers.

Then when I shut off a 3-way dimmer one LED bulb in the line always remained dimly lit, it was not possible to completely shut the lights off. When I unplugged the dimly lit bulb when it was supposed to be off, another would then turn on dimly.

Continuing on periodically one bulb would go extremely dim even when the dimmer was on maximum brightness and all other bulbs were bright. Shutting it off for 2-3 hours would bring the bulb working correctly for a bit. Once a bulb did this it seemed to do it on occasion from that point forward even swapping it around, that bulb once it went dim once would periodically do it then on.

There was a sale at Home Depot, CREE brand LED down lights for something like $1.85 each. I'd tried eco-smart, GE, Phillips, didn't expect much from CREE at that price but they worked flawlessly. At most, if a big load kicks on (like an AC, vacuum, tablesaw) they will blink but otherwise they're the only LED's that I could use with a dimmer, didn't buzz, didn't blink, didn't stay lit when the dimmer was off, nor stay dim when the dimmer was full brightness and I would call a success I haven't had an issue going over a year after getting CREE.

So I recommend trying CREE based LED lights and sometimes at Home Depot they have crazy deals on CREE previously $9.97 now $1.85 and I stock up on them. Unfortunately it wasn't long ago (about 5 weeks ago) when they did it, and I find they go on sale like that once or twice a year so it won't be soon. Perhaps get a couple, try them, and see if your area has a big sale on them as well and stock up or maybe they're still on sale. The online price doesn't reflect the sale I believe, I just happen to check whenever I go at my local HD.

 

[njitgrad]

You sound a lot like me. I had humming LED's on dimmers, then I swapped my dimmers out for LED compatible ones, swapped them out again for ones that have an LED adjustment on them. My issue's were following:

Buzzing using LED's on non-LED compatible dimmers. I swapped out the dimmers.

Then when I shut off a 3-way dimmer one LED bulb in the line always remained dimly lit, it was not possible to completely shut the lights off. When I unplugged the dimly lit bulb when it was supposed to be off, another would then turn on dimly.

Continuing on periodically one bulb would go extremely dim even when the dimmer was on maximum brightness and all other bulbs were bright. Shutting it off for 2-3 hours would bring the bulb working correctly for a bit. Once a bulb did this it seemed to do it on occasion from that point forward even swapping it around, that bulb once it went dim once would periodically do it then on.

There was a sale at Home Depot, CREE brand LED down lights for something like $1.85 each. I'd tried eco-smart, GE, Phillips, didn't expect much from CREE at that price but they worked flawlessly. At most, if a big load kicks on (like an AC, vacuum, tablesaw) they will blink but otherwise they're the only LED's that I could use with a dimmer, didn't buzz, didn't blink, didn't stay lit when the dimmer was off, nor stay dim when the dimmer was full brightness and I would call a success I haven't had an issue going over a year after getting CREE.

So I recommend trying CREE based LED lights and sometimes at Home Depot they have crazy deals on CREE previously $9.97 now $1.85 and I stock up on them. Unfortunately it wasn't long ago (about 5 weeks ago) when they did it, and I find they go on sale like that once or twice a year so it won't be soon. Perhaps get a couple, try them, and see if your area has a big sale on them as well and stock up or maybe they're still on sale. The online price doesn't reflect the sale I believe, I just happen to check whenever I go at my local HD.

Thanks for the advice. I've tried EcoSmart from HD but not Cree. Probably because I don't recall them coming in BR40 size. What size Cree bulbs are you using?

 

[FrodoOne]

My understanding is the LCDs are the size of bricks and not practical in my case.

If you look at http://www.cleverhome.com.au/manuals/Clipsal-31LCDA-Load-Corrective-Device-installation.pdf
you will find that the dimensions of that device are given as 3 cm x 2 cm x 1 cm - with 95 mm flyleads.
(Translation: - [Approximately] 1 3/16" x 13/16" x 3/8" - with 3 3/4" flyleads.)

I guestimate that this is about the size of 4 or 5 "Leggo" bricks!