[AlpineB]

I have an existing system that operates but is not wired/connected to the switches perfectly. Several questions. I will probably have the electrician come out, but now I am curious about some things that are not addressed in DIY books or on line.

Existing Set Up

I. Ceiling Fan with Light. Currently connected to 3 SWITCHES that turn whole thing on or off based on the decisions made with the hanging chains on the unit. (There is a weird wiring glitch with at least one switch, see below.)

II. North Wall Switch Box. Contains 5 CABLES. (Looks like 3 are for the outside light and are not at issue here. 2 are going to the switch that operates the fan/light. Bottom Cable is Red, Black White, Copper. Top Cable is Black, White, Copper.) Contains 2 SWITCHES. One switch is for outside light and not at issue here. Other switch [SWITCH A] is on/off for the ceiling fan/light. It is wired with 1 red wire, 2 black wires and 1 copper, and it is a three-way or possibly four-way switch as I am not certain how to tell, and it does effectively turn the ceiling fan/light on and off. Weird Part--ONLY turns on/off if the Black Wire SWITCH C on East Wall is OFF.

III. East Wall Switch Box. Contains 3 CABLES. (Bottom--Black, White, Copper. Top Right--black, white, copper. Top Left--Red, Black, White, Copper.) Contains 2 SWITCHES. Both are wired to turn the whole fan/light unit on/off. They are not set up as one switch is the fan motor and one switch is the light. However, the red wire only goes to one switch.

a. Red Wire Switch [SWITCH B] -- has 1 Red Wire, 2 Black Wires, 1 Copper. Seems to be a three-way or a four-way with the North Wall Switch A, and maybe East Wall SWITCH C. Weird Part--ONLY Turns on/off if the Black Wire SWITCH C on East Wall if OFF.

b. Black Wire Switch [SWITCH C] -- has 2 Black Wires, 1 Copper. Seems to be a three-way or a four-way with the North Wall SWITCH A, maybe also East Wall SWITCH B. Weird Part--Only turns fan/light on/off if East Wall SWITCH B is ON.

QUESTIONS

1. What is the third CABLE coming into the East Switch Box, as one must be a cable from the fan/light unit and one must be power from the electrical box. What is the third cable for, and should it be used to connect fan/light unit to switches?

2. What is the best way to wire a ceiling fan/light to switches on 2 walls? A three-way switch for the light--on the North and East Walls, PLUS a single-pole switch for the fan motor--on the East Wall?

3. Why is the East Wall SWITCH C so weird--needing to be off if I want SWITCHES A and B to also work?

4. How should this system be properly wired?

THANKS FOR READING THIS LONG POST.
AlpineB

 

[AlpineB]

By the way, I am in the United States. I just assumed this whole forum was American, but I see that the time stamp is 6 hours ahead.

 

[Oso954]

The way you tell your switches apart is count the number of screws, not counting any green ground screws. A single pole has 2screws, a 3way will have 3 (with the common being black) and a 4 way has 4 screws. (120v, there are other switches with 4 screws, but they are used in 240v applications).

There is no off position in 3 way or 4 way switches. Assuming you have toggle switches, look at the toggles. Only the single poles are labeled on or off. The 3 or 4ways are blank.

A single pole breaks the connection between the line (hot) and the load (outgoing or switched hot).

3 way switches switch power between 2wires called travelers. If one switch is connecting to the red traveler and the other to the blk, the light is off. If both switches are on the same traveler, the light is on.

4way switches are installed in between 3 way switches. (Usually only one 4 way, but you can have multiples). In one position, they connect the travelers straight thru (red to red, blk to blk). Flip the switch, and they cross connect the travelers (in blk to red out, in red to blk out).

I think you would be best off to bring a pro in to straighten out your problem. Something is really goofed up. There isn't a good reason (that I can think off) for having 2 switches on the east wall both seemingly interacting with the north wall.

 

[AlpineB]

I think you would be best off to bring a pro in to straighten out your problem. Something is really goofed up. There isn't a good reason (that I can think off) for having 2 switches on the east wall both seemingly interacting with the north wall.

Yes, I agree that a pro would be best. This room is wired strangely. Based on the # of screws in the switches, I have 2 three-way switches (North Wall and East Wall) and one single-pole (East Wall), but the single pole is wired to be connected to the three-way switches and both the fan and the light on the ceiling.

WHAT ARE THE 3 CABLES IN THE SWITCH BOX?
Can you tell me about the 3 cables coming into the East Wall switch box. Like I said above, it would seem that one cable (the 14-3) is coming from the ceiling fan/light unit; one cable (the 12-2) is coming from the house power (electrical box?); and there is one more cable (a 12-2) coming from above in the switch box. What is that last cable for? There are no other lights or electrical units (Except for a gas fireplace with a 9-volt battery starter with a remote) in the room, and I have plugged something in every socket, top and bottom with all combinations of the switches up and down to see if there is a connection, and I haven't seen one yet.

Also, from above, when I said the switches were on/off, I meant that I flipped the switch either up or down, whether the switch was single-pole, three-way, four-way, etc.

Thanks for your information.

 

[Oso954]

The 14-3 cable should be the connection to the 3way switch on the north wall. It may run up thru the fan location or take some other route.

There is no way I can identify the other two cables from the info provided. While you say that the power enters east wall switch B (3way) I am not sure I can count on that.

But if I do rely on that, I would not expect to find a 2nd power source unless there were 4 cables in that box. I would expect to find the 3rd cable to be power out from switch C to some other device (either you haven't found it or it may have been removed), and to find a single black jumper wire bringing power to switch C. The jumper would be a pigtail from the 12-2 black that powers s&w B.

It sounds to me like someone, at sometime, tried replacing those switches and really crossed things up.

The other possibility would be a dead end 3way fed from the north wall, and then one 2wire power into sw C and the other 2wire out to that missing device.

I hope you haven't been using a non-contact voltage tester when trying to figure out where power is.

 

[AlpineB]

I hope you haven't been using a non-contact voltage tester when trying to figure out where power is.

No. I just have been observing what's in the box and reporting here. I thought this would be a good learning project, but I can see that it is not usual, and perhaps dangerous, so I will call a licensed electrician.

I know this house has bad wiring in some places because I caught a fire starting behind an unused outlet. The white wire caught on fire because (everyone guesses) it was not properly wrapped around the switch screw. Since it was the white wire, it did not flip the breaker box. Apparently, in that scenario, the fire has to get big enough to incorporate the black wire to have the breaker flip. I have bionic smelling and smelled a molecule of smoke (which I trust because I prevented a house fire in another house by smelling a molecule of smoke upstairs, story below). I ran around looking for the fire that I knew was starting and finally saw a tendril of smoke coming out of the outlet. My neighbor told me to flip the breaker box and the fire went out. We replaced the outlet and checked the other outlets in the house.

The first time my bionic smelling stopped a house fire was when I smelled a molecule of smoke upstairs. The fire was starting downstairs, it turns out. What happened was I had placed a snow globe on a sofa table placed behind the sofa. I had placed a throw pillow next to the snow globe the night before to lie on the sofa. The earth had rotated enough with the seasons to have the sun come through the port window and hit the snow globe JUST RIGHT to create a prism which was directed onto the throw pillow. I finally identified it as the source of the smoke when the fabric was burnt to the diameter of a pencil--just before the stuffing (basically made out of petroleum) caught alight!

Both times, I was supposed to be out for the day and happened to change my mind and cancel my plans!

So, long story short, I don't want to play around with weird wiring. Plus, I realize that there is another switch on the West Wall that doesn't do anything, but I always assumed it was related to the starter on the gas fireplace, which is faulty and has a 9-volt back-up. So the electrician can tell me if I am right about that one, too.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[AlpineB]

BTW: After the electrician straightens things up over here, if I would like to replace the East Wall switches with one light dimmer and one fan speed controller, would it just be a simple process of putting the same wires in the same, corresponding spots on the dimmer/speed control switches?

 

[Oso954]

It's a lot more complicated than just replacing the switch.

Right now you only have one power supply up to the fan and you are using pull chains to direct that power. You would at minimum have to get a 3 wire connection (not counting ground) up to the fan, to seperate the fan power and light power.

Since you only have a single 3 way circuit (instead of two) the fan speed control/ dimmer switch would have to be in the load switch position. According to your info, that is the north wall. So you would be able to turn the light on or off from the east wall, but for the fan, it would only be controlled from only from the north. You would also dimm the light there and be able to turn it on or off.

If that doesn't work for you, I would look at the various wall mounted remote controls. They would give you full control of the fan and light from either position. Since there is a unit to be installed in the fan canopy, plus the two wall units, I would talk with your electrician about them. He might also have some other ideas to achieve the functionality you are looking for, once he has the wiring staightend out and knows for sure which switch is line and which is load.