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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Howdy all,

Thinking about installing a ClimateMaster Trilogy 45 Q-Series 2-ton unit and I'm trying to confirm it can operate when the incoming fluid temperature is at 32F. Based on the manual discussing when to put antifreeze in the loop, it would appear so. But I would be interested in the efficiency of the rating with fluid incoming at 32F but haven't found anything online.

I've seen this doc but unless I'm missing it, I don't see that addressed: https://files.climatemaster.com/97b...ng-and-cooling-system-installation-manual.pdf

Anybody know where to find that info? Many thanks for the help.
 

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Performance data starts at page 50. That is a variable speed compressor, which will run faster to maintain capacity. It will be drawing over 2× the power to run in heating at 30°f EWT as it would at 80°f EWT. (less than half the efficiency)

Why are you expecting water so cold? Sourcing from a lake? Is deep ground that cold where you are?

PS. That is a very expensive model. Is that what you really want, and /or need? Parts are even more expensive and it can be hard to find techs to look at it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Performance data starts at page 50. That is a variable speed compressor, which will run faster to maintain capacity. It will be drawing over 2× the power to run in heating at 30°f EWT as it would at 80°f EWT. (less than half the efficiency)

Why are you expecting water so cold? Sourcing from a lake? Is deep ground that cold where you are?

PS. That is a very expensive model. Is that what you really want, and /or need? Parts are even more expensive and it can be hard to find techs to look at it.
Thanks for pointing that out. Right there nicely laid out and I missed it.

I am not sure how cold the ground is where I'm at. We have long winters and it gets down to -10F sometimes although normally not for long. This winter has been colder. But to answer your question, somebody from an Alaska Energy agency I've been chatting with told me to calculate the efficiency of the unit at inlet water at that temp as I try to size the system I need. I'm going to bury the loop ten feet down in mostly clay and silt type of soil and oversize the loop length.

As to that model, I selected it for its energy efficiency. We're off grid on solar and I want to get the most bang for the electrical buck. Of course there may be days when we simply have to fire up the wood stove, I'm just trying to cut my wood usage down as much as possible.
 

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Ah, you're going with a horizontal loop. Cheaper than a vertical loop when you have the space. 30°f sounds about right then, and will be colder later in the season. You'll want to be below the frost line, 10ft might be a tad short for your location. There's maps available of ground temp and frost line depths for the whole continent if you need it. Make sure that you have ample amount of pipe, or you'll won't thaw out enough during the summer.

A solar water heater might help a lot if you do run into capacity trouble. Your location is heating dominate, so you may not be putting enough energy back into the ground during the summer. You can add it on any time in the future if you need it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ah, you're going with a horizontal loop. Cheaper than a vertical loop when you have the space. 30°f sounds about right then, and will be colder later in the season. You'll want to be below the frost line, 10ft might be a tad short for your location. There's maps available of ground temp and frost line depths for the whole continent if you need it. Make sure that you have ample amount of pipe, or you'll won't thaw out enough during the summer.

A solar water heater might help a lot if you do run into capacity trouble. Your location is heating dominate, so you may not be putting enough energy back into the ground during the summer. You can add it on any time in the future if you need it.
I wish we could get the machines up here to dig a vertical loop and get those warmer temps but unfortunately I haven't found a drilling rig on tracks which would be required to get here. Would be awesome though.

I was looking for ground temp maps that covered Alaska but couldn't find any. All I found covered only the lower 48, do you have a link to those maps by chance?

We'll look into the solar water heater option too, thanks for that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

This is for Canada but if you're near the border it might be more detailed.


PS. Only in Canada you can get an graph with both Celsius and Fahrenheit relating to different things.
That's useful. Up to five foot frost zone sounds like a number I've heard before. So at ten feet I would hope the ground would be warmer than 32F.

I got in touch with a company that has a drill rig on tracks and I'm going to see what number they give me for drilling and if I can afford it, we may well just go with a vertical loop to get some warmer temps (and maybe some water to drink).
 

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That's useful. Up to five foot frost zone sounds like a number I've heard before. So at ten feet I would hope the ground would be warmer than 32F.

I got in touch with a company that has a drill rig on tracks and I'm going to see what number they give me for drilling and if I can afford it, we may well just go with a vertical loop to get some warmer temps (and maybe some water to drink).
Just a warning, they are very expensive. Granted, if you need a potable well anyways, the extra wells are a lot cheaper comparatively. The fixed costs are quite high.

I take it by the 5ft that you're on the southern coast.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just a warning, they are very expensive. Granted, if you need a potable well anyways, the extra wells are a lot cheaper comparatively. The fixed costs are quite high.

I take it by the 5ft that you're on the southern coast.
Yeah, southern coast. And yeah, they're expensive. Just got a quote from the company that has the machine on tracks. $125 a foot and a $50K minimum. Outside our budget, so horizontal loop it is.

Fairbanks has a GSHP and loop they buried 9 feet down. Their data shows the soil down there is 32F for most of the winter. We don't get nearly as cold as they do, but we also don't get nearly as hot in the summer to recharge the ground.

One issue I'm having reading the GSHP Performance data, it's showing different MBTUH for various fluid temperatures, but how do I convert that into BTU to understand what kind of heat it will put out and whether it will meet or exceed our 17K BTU heat design load?

It's showing something like 29 MBTUH for 30F temps, but when I go to calculators they convert 29 MBTUH into something like a million BTU. That can't be right for a two ton unit so I'm not understanding something here. Which isn't unusual.
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MBTUH is thousands of btu/hr. MMBTUH is millions of BTU/hr. The longer it runs, the more accumulated BTUs you pull out of the ground. Which calculators are you referring to? The ground loop calculators?

When under the frost zone you have ground water constantly conducting heat from the greater area as well as from before. It helps the thawing process greatly. When you're above the frost zone, you have to wait for the ground moisture to melt first which is a substantial amount of heat. (144 btu per pound of water frozen, so it adds up real quick, and why in a climate such as yours, it can take so long to thaw in the summer, if at all.) The ground loop calculations are an educated guestimate, as ground conditions change it so much. If you're doing the digging yourself, add as much as you can reasonably afford. When a company is doing it the price skyrockets unfortunately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
MBTUH is thousands of btu/hr. MMBTUH is millions of BTU/hr. The longer it runs, the more accumulated BTUs you pull out of the ground. Which calculators are you referring to? The ground loop calculators?

When under the frost zone you have ground water constantly conducting heat from the greater area as well as from before. It helps the thawing process greatly. When you're above the frost zone, you have to wait for the ground moisture to melt first which is a substantial amount of heat. (144 btu per pound of water frozen, so it adds up real quick, and why in a climate such as yours, it can take so long to thaw in the summer, if at all.) The ground loop calculations are an educated guestimate, as ground conditions change it so much. If you're doing the digging yourself, add as much as you can reasonably afford. When a company is doing it the price skyrockets unfortunately.
I used this calculator:

And that calculator converted 19.5 MBTUH to 19500000 BTUH which seems very wrong. That's why I was confused.

But I found this calculator which backs up your conversation, and makes sense, so thank you!

And I assume I should be using HE (which is always under the 24K BTU the two ton unit can produce) to get the heat that it can dump into the cabin at those inlet temps. Makes sense now I think.
 

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I used this calculator:

But I found this calculator which backs up your conversation, and makes sense, so thank you!

And I assume I should be using HE (which is always under the 24K BTU the two ton unit can produce) to get the heat that it can dump into the cabin at those inlet temps. Makes sense now I think.
Some people used upper case M as million and lower case as thousand but as you can that causes confusion. It could just be the author misunderstood coming from a metric background.
 

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Howdy all,

Thinking about installing a ClimateMaster Trilogy 45 Q-Series 2-ton unit and I'm trying to confirm it can operate when the incoming fluid temperature is at 32F. Based on the manual discussing when to put antifreeze in the loop, it would appear so. But I would be interested in the efficiency of the rating with fluid incoming at 32F but haven't found anything online.

I've seen this doc but unless I'm missing it, I don't see that addressed: https://files.climatemaster.com/97b...ng-and-cooling-system-installation-manual.pdfApplinked - Download Applinked APK on Firestick & Nvidia Shield

Anybody know where to find that info? Many thanks for the help.
Same thing here. Needs help.
 
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