Can I add two additional circuits to this box
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Wow, what a mess. Great example of poor quality workmanship.
In spaces 13 & 15, I see a 240 volt feed, but with different sized breakers on each leg, and the breakers are not combination breakers. So you could possibly turn one off and leave one leg hot. If you follow the red wire, you can see it going to the 10-3 on the left side of the panel. In spaces 21 & 23, there is a feed of 120 volts on a white wire that I would bet is NOT color coded on the other end. It is not on this end either. Just asking to get shocked, or worse.
In spaces 13 & 15, I see a 240 volt feed, but with different sized breakers on each leg, and the breakers are not combination breakers. So you could possibly turn one off and leave one leg hot. If you follow the red wire, you can see it going to the 10-3 on the left side of the panel. In spaces 21 & 23, there is a feed of 120 volts on a white wire that I would bet is NOT color coded on the other end. It is not on this end either. Just asking to get shocked, or worse.
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I suspect 13/15 is a MWBC. Based on the age of the panel it is from an era that did not require using a 2 pole breaker or a handle tie.
thx for your help.
regarding breakers 13 and 15 - i can see why you would think it is a 220. it actually is two different 110 circuits. the one with the red wire - the prior owner and 12/3 wire and used the red instead of the black. but - i am selling the house in a few years so i take your point and plan to remove the 12/3 wire, replace it with 12/2 wire.
prior owner's father did a lot of the rewiring in the house and did a real poor job.
Thanks again for your help - it is mich appreciated.
regarding breakers 13 and 15 - i can see why you would think it is a 220. it actually is two different 110 circuits. the one with the red wire - the prior owner and 12/3 wire and used the red instead of the black. but - i am selling the house in a few years so i take your point and plan to remove the 12/3 wire, replace it with 12/2 wire.
prior owner's father did a lot of the rewiring in the house and did a real poor job.
Thanks again for your help - it is mich appreciated.
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Not necessary to replace the wire, but you will get gigged for those GE breakers in a Murray panel.
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While you are there get a handle tie and tie those 2 breaker together.
CH, QO, Pushmatic, Zinsco and FPE breakers all have very unique shape and it's not possible for brand X to anywhere near fit Brand Y.
However, BR, HOM, GE and Siemens/Murray and Siemens/ITE all are 1" wide breakers with coarsely similar form-factors. They're similar *enough* that a competitor breaker will usually seem to "snap in" to the bus stabs. However, the bus stabs are actually different in shape (not least, due to patent protection each obtained on their stab) - and the clip on the breaker will not mate *properly* with the competitor stab. It will have corner contact in a tiny area instead of the broad surface contact it's supposed to. This will seem to work under low load, but will stress out quickly under heavier load, and eventually cause heating, arcing and pitting which will permanently ruin the bus stab, making that breaker space a "dead zone". Not what you want!
The risk of fire makes it a Code violation, specifically 110.2 which requires approved components and 110.3(B) which requires you follow the instructions i.e. use the device as tested and approved.
UL does approve *certain* competitor breakers on a case by case basis; these are called UL-Classified.: Eaton CL (CLassified, get it?) are approved for HOMeline, Siemens, and GE Q panels. Eaton CHQ and Siemens QD are approved for QO panels. This is nice because it gives you access to some of Eaton's exotica e.g. remote-control breakers that nobody else makes.
I bet if you look other places in the circuit, you will see the black used instead of the red. Learn more about a Multi-Wire Branch Circuit -- that's what this is. It's a very slick way to get 2 circuits' worth out of a single /3 cable - however, it is one circuit, a "multi-wire branch" circuit.
While you may be grandfathered, the reason to fit handle-ties is to keep you from getting nailed when you are trying to maintain it. For instance if you turn off the red-wire breaker and then take the circuit apart, the moment you separate neutral, you will discover the black is in use after all, when you get nailed by current moving on the neutral from the black wire!
MWBCs must be phased correctly. The two wires must be on opposite poles/phases to avoid overloading neutral.
Those issues raised above were probably installed well before the requirement for a common disconnect for both legs. Previous codes only required a common disconnect if both legs landed on the same yoke. It helps to know what you are talking about before raising the alarm. It may not meet the current code, but the code is not retroactive with few exceptions.
Same as the white on a 2 pole breaker. Knowledgeable persons understood the white was a hot in a 240 volt circuit. The code was changed due to less informed persons being confused by a common practice.
Same as the white on a 2 pole breaker. Knowledgeable persons understood the white was a hot in a 240 volt circuit. The code was changed due to less informed persons being confused by a common practice.
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I may be wrong, but what size is the main service wire? Should be at least 2/0 wire. Just looks small, maybe not.
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