[Amycat]

In a few weeks I'll be pulling the trigger on a complete kitchen renovation. I've been working with a kitchen designer and have lined up a contractor whose work I've seen in other homes.

Cabinetry is threatening to blow my budget of $45,000. The kitchen designer sells three cabinetry lines at different price points:

Ultracraft - $18,000

Kemper - $13,500 to 15,800 (depending on door style)

JSI - $12,200.

The contractor's estimate on the work is $27,000. Figure $3,000 for appliances. Stone countertop will run $3,000 to $5,000. I'm hoping to get away with something closer to the low end of that. So that leaves at most $12,000 for cabinets, which is the JSI product.

According to the designer, Kemper is better build quality and has a limited lifetime warranty while JSI's warranty is only five years. We have no children in the house, but we plan on staying in it for at least twenty more years until retirement. I don't want to have to purchase new cabinets in ten years because of warped doors or peeling finish.

The house is currently worth about $350,000. Fifteen percent of that is > $50,000. Am I being unrealistically low on the price of a kitchen reno? On the other hand, $50,000 will completely burn through my savings and there will be no reserve for an emergency -- like if the gas-fired boiler dies.

Does anyone have recommendations about Kemper vs. JSI? Ultracraft just seems way too expensive.

 

[Daniel Holzman]

Have you considered building your own cabinets? I built all the kitchen cabinets in our house, used 3/4 inch A-A maple veneer plywood, 3/4 inch maple face frames, rail and style (Shaker style) maple doors with walnut accent. Requires about $250 of lumber per cabinet, I built about a dozen cabinets of various sizes, cost about $4000 total for material including door handles, rails, closures, hinges. Course it took me two years, which was OK since there were existing cabinets in place which I replaced one at a time. Maybe you don't have the time, the energy, or the tools, but if you do, you can get really nice cabinetry for a lot less than the figures you are quoting, assuming of course you value your time at zero. But what else were you planning to do for the next year or so?

 

[Amycat]

I don't have the time or the tools.

 

[mako1]

It would help to know what part of the country you are in since prices vary widely .Any more info you could give would help.What style cabinets? How many lf?
There are so many variables that it impossible to give you a good answer without more info.

In general,what are the cases made from?What type and brand of hardware is used?Especially the drawer glides.Full extension,soft close ,weight rating and side or undermount?How about the door overlay,door style and type of hinges?Finish?Style of door?
These are all variables which effect the price and vary in quality from different companies.
You're not going to find the answer to your question on an internet forum.I understand you are looking for real world advise from someone that has actually owned some of these brands of cabinets but you would be better off doing due diligence on your own and being confident in your decision.
It is also pretty much worthless to post such a vague question on most of these forums.It's like you are expecting others to put effort into answering and doing research for you when you would not even take the time to give them enough info to do it .
Don't intend to be harsh and I wish you well with your remodel.Just get tired of people not having the time to give a little information on their issue for anyone to even offer a decent opinion but expecting everyone else to take time out of their day to reply .

 

[MT Stringer]

+1 what Mako said.

There is a huge difference in the price of houses say in Californika vs Texas, and up north for that matter. I see homes on the TV shows that are more than $500K that are pieces of junk from the 60's.

I would the same goes for renovations also.

I think we have about $3000 in our custom built (by me and my sweetie) cabinets and about $3700 for the Silestone countertops. The cabs should be good to go for decades.

Blum soft close hinges for the doors. Full extension, ball bearing soft close drawer slides. Love 'em.

Good luck with your reno. Post some pics. We love pics!

Edit: Just a thought. We love the drawers in the base cabinets. No more digging in the back to find the pots and pans.

 

[Amycat]

New England.

For JSI and Kemper: doors maple, opaque finish, with glaze, full overlay.

Kemper hardware: 3/4 extension side-mounted glides, I assume soft closing; 6-way adjustable concealed hinges.

JSI hardware: full extension under-mounted soft-closing glides, 6-way adjustable concealed hinges.

Kemper construction: 3/8" furniture board end panels and backs; 1/2" furniture board top and bottom; 3/4" solid hardwood face frame; 1/2" plywood I-beam braces dadoed into face frame, end panels, and back; drawers have 1/2" laminated furniture board sides and 3/8" laminated furniture board bottom.

JSI construction: 1/2" plywood end panels, tops, and bottoms; 3/4" X 1 and 9/16" mortise & tenon face frames (material not specified); 1/8" panel and 3/8" plywood for back panels; 5/8" hang rails; drawers have 3/4" solid wood sides with dovetails.

 

[Colbyt]

+1 what Mako said.

There is a huge difference in the price of houses say in Californika vs Texas, and up north for that matter. I see homes on the TV shows that are more than $500K that are pieces of junk from the 60's.

I would the same goes for renovations also.

I think we have about $3000 in our custom built (by me and my sweetie) cabinets and about $3700 for the Silestone countertops. The cabs should be good to go for decades.

Blum soft close hinges for the doors. Full extension, ball bearing soft close drawer slides. Love 'em.

Good luck with your reno. Post some pics. We love pics!

Edit: Just a thought. We love the drawers in the base cabinets. No more digging in the back to find the pots and pans.

I really like your 'commercial style' silver ware drawer.

 

[rjniles]

Look at Cliq Studios on line cabinets. I have used them and the quality is great. They come fully assembled.

http://www.cliqstudios.com/

 

[Amycat]

Look at Cliq Studios on line cabinets. I have used them and the quality is great. They come fully assembled.

http://www.cliqstudios.com/

I am interested in what people think of Kemper and JSI given the information I have provided above.

 

[MT Stringer]

I really like your 'commercial style' silver ware drawer.

Thanks. My wife found a picture on the internet and said "I want one like this". OK. :biggrin2:

Here is the example she provided.

 

[Fix'n it]

i paid $3500 for real solid cherry with plywood boxs and soft close drawers. 2 "base" kitchens worth.

 

[ddawg16]

No way I'd be doing a 'name brand'.

Look in the yellow pages for cabinet manuf. There should be several local guys who will do just as good if not better work for a lot less.

Without knowing the size and layout of the kitchen, hard to say if those are good prices....but the $27K seems real high unless some major work is being done.

Assuming a 3 man crew...

Demo.....one day

Wall clean up and prep....2 days.

Cabinet install...2-3 days

Assume each worker is worth $200/day. For quoting purposes....contractor is maybe figuring $1000/day (has to make a profit)

So he has maybe 10 days of work?

I think your granite estimate is low....Assume $1000-1500 per slab just for material and then labor to cut and polish....I think you are looking at more like $6-8K for just granite assuming you need more than one slab.

You made no mention of flooring....

How about some pics?

 

[Amycat]

I found some additional information. A lot of the features listed as standard for JSI are "upgrades" (presumably at additional cost) for Kemper:

- 3/4" plywood shelves
- 3/4" solid wood dovetail drawer sides
- full extension undermount drawer slides
- plywood end panels, tops, and bottoms

Is plywood superior to "furniture board"? If so, I still can't figure out why Kemper is more expensive than JSI.

I might be able to post some photos later today. I'm doing more demolition of plaster walls this morning. The contractor is going to do the more complicated stuff.

New England.

For JSI and Kemper: doors maple, opaque finish, with glaze, full overlay.

Kemper hardware: 3/4 extension side-mounted glides, I assume soft closing; 6-way adjustable concealed hinges.

JSI hardware: full extension under-mounted soft-closing glides, 6-way adjustable concealed hinges.

Kemper construction: 3/8" furniture board end panels and backs; 1/2" furniture board top and bottom; 3/4" solid hardwood face frame; 1/2" plywood I-beam braces dadoed into face frame, end panels, and back; drawers have 1/2" laminated furniture board sides and 3/8" laminated furniture board bottom.

JSI construction: 1/2" plywood end panels, tops, and bottoms; 3/4" X 1 and 9/16" mortise & tenon face frames (material not specified); 1/8" panel and 3/8" plywood for back panels; 5/8" hang rails; drawers have 3/4" solid wood sides with dovetails.

 

[rjniles]

Furniture board is a high quality MDF. Differing options on the quality.
http://blog.nj.com/premium/us_kitch...article_board_engineered_wood_or_plywood.html

I prefer plywood cabinet boxes.

 

[Fix'n it]

Look in the yellow pages for cabinet manuf. There should be several local guys who will do just as good if not better work for a lot less.




I think your granite estimate is low....Assume $1000-1500 per slab just for material and then labor to cut and polish....I think you are looking at more like $6-8K for just granite assuming you need more than one slab.

How about some pics?

i bought my cabinets from a building supply.

i paid $2500 for my granite installed. about 20 LF. and its nice stuff.

 

[oldfrt]

Amycat,
Sometimes its possible to find great pricing on cabinets that have been mis-ordered or from a client having a change of heart.
Found a complete kitchen for my sister last year that were still in their boxes and being sold at less than half the retail due to a divorce.
It may be rare to find something that fits your taste but if the savings are substantial its worth taking a look.
I received the lay out ahead of time and fit it into a workable lay out for my project.


I started looking around for another deal today for another relative and came across a couple of complete kitchens that are new.

This one is quite a drive for me but have your designer see if these will lay out so they can work for you:http://westernmass.craigslist.org/fod/5390632689.html




BRAND NEW SET OF 18 SHAKER WHITE KITCHEN CABINETS NEVER INSTALLED. THESE ARE SOLID WOOD WITH SOFT CLOSING DRAWS, DOVETAIL, FULL OVERLAY DOORS, 6 WAY EURO HINGES, 5/8THS PLYWOOD SIDES & BACKS!

RETAILS FOR OVER $10,500 OUR PRICE FOR $4000!!

MUST HAVE 94" CEILINGS OR HIGHER TO WORK.

***WALLS***
2)W9/42
2)W12/42
1)W15/42
1)W18/42
1)W21/42
1)W24/42
1)W30/42
1)WDC24/42

**BASES**
1)SB33
1)B36
1)LAZY SUSAN 36
1)DRAW BASE 12
1)B30 2 DT
1)BPPS 30
1)TRASH 21
1)B9 SPICE PULL OUT

**CAN INCLUDE OVEN PANTRY FOR $350
**CAN INCLUDE TALL OVEN CABINET FOR $350

 

[Amycat]

Furniture board is a high quality MDF. Differing options on the quality.
http://blog.nj.com/premium/us_kitch...article_board_engineered_wood_or_plywood.html

I prefer plywood cabinet boxes.

Very interesting. I still remember "my father's particle board" from my childhood. That stuff turned to mush if it got wet.

I spoke with a contractor today, someone with a good reputation but who is not involved with this project. He said JSI's plywood comes from China, pre-cut, shipped flat. He described it as not the best quality. He then said this:

"Furniture board can be just as good if not better than plywood. It depends on the product. But if you're going to be in the house for as long as you say you will, quality of finish is also important. I put JSI in my rental properties. Repaint them every time a tenant moves out. But I put Diamond cabinets [a Masterbrand company, as is Kemper] in my own kitchen. They are seventeen years old and still look great."

 

[Amycat]

Update:

We decided to get the Kemper Echo cabinet with partial overlay doors. The price we were first quoted by the kitchen designer already included the cost of the upgrade to drawers with solid wood sides and undermount slides, as well as pullout shelves in the bottom of the island. In the end the Kemper cabinets were only about $1300 more than the JSI, and the impression I got from the contractor was that he thought Kemper would be more likely to last for 20+ years (when we plan to retire and sell the house).

JSI is made with Chinese plywood, and ships to the customer either as ready-to-assemble or assembled. The contractor was always of the opinion that the plywood from China was likely to be less durable than the furniture board in the Kemper products.

I should mention that changing the style of the door brought the price down by $2,000.

The countertops will be "fantasy brown" granite for $3300.