[tweakedlogic]

I desperately need a new HVAC system. my a/c is pre- seer 9, and furnace is lat '70s. A/c is failing. I ahve a 1500 sq ft ranch style home on a slab. I am in shade all day long due to large Oaks. I am poorly insulated, but fixing that.
On to the quandry. I've been shopping around. I ned to stay as far below $3500 as possible. So i was looking at Goodman. I was gonig to DIY the whole thing. I got an internet quote of $3358 + $200 shipping. for a 3 ton seer 16 two stage a/c and a 95% eff. air handler. I don't want an air handler i want gas, but that's later. then I read some reviews of Goodman products and more than half were dissatisfied. Said they broke down days after install by a pro.
Then i got two quotes from another net guy for Wirlpool Gold. 3 ton Seer 13 heat pump/ a/c, and 80% furnace for $3270, his other was a 3 ton Seer 16 two stage and 95% effiency furnace for $5760. Obviously this is out of my price range.
Non of this includes insulated refrigerant pipe or anything else i will need.
My question: Is Goodman good? Will they give me several years of trouble free use? Should I go with a Trane/Wirlpool/Kenmore/etc?
And... Should I attempt this install? I am very handy with most anything. But I've things like run duct, plumbing, and wireing. I feel confident that I can do this right, but i can't forsee the problems I'm going to run into.
Idealy, I would have a compitent angency install reliable equipment. But I am out of work due to the economy and we are living on my wife's salary for now. The a/c won't last thru the summer, so I don't have much choice to do it soon before it completly fails.

Any help, any advice is more than welcome.
Thanks

 

[dac122]

Unfortunately you're not going to get a clear recommendation on Goodman. But what I can tell you is installation is key - even the most superior brand (whatever that is) can be junk if installed wrong. Also, there is a school of thought that most parts amongst brands are common these days (compressors, fans motors, contactors,etc.) so there really isn't much difference in quality.

As far as DIY on this project, if you've never done HVAC before I would recommend you get a qualified pro to do the job or oversee what you are doing. There are pros that will let you do the grunt work (placing unit and coil, electrical hookup and tstat hookup, running lineset, etc.), and then the pros does inspection of your work, all brazing and final system startup. This would give you a high reward lower cost system, with low risk of damage. But you need to have a conversation with a pro that is willing to do things this way. Start that conversation by saying you are willing to pay them on T&M basis, so if you screw something up they still get paid to correct it. This will also assure that all future warranty claims are honored by the manufacturers since a pro oversaw the job and did final system startup.

 

[hvaclover]

Good advice dac122, but how many contractors would actually go for that?

I have never done a job with customer provided equipment. You don't make nothing but wages and even though you make it clear the HO the warranty is on them they invariably call you the contractor expecting free warranty service when it breaks down.

I did do one job that in the end just reinforced my policy of no customer provided equipment.
My son got his EE and submitted resume all over. A employment recruiter saw he had hvac experience and asked him to give him a price on installing a four ton split. He came to me and asked what he should charge.

Long story short he got six hundred with me helping. The guy wanted a warranty before he would pay. I had schooled my kid good on the business end and my kid had everything in writing including an "Installed as is" clause.

When the recruiter couldn't get out of paying his threatened to ruin my kids name in the business world. That was it for me. I pushed him against the wall and and threatened to wipe the floor with him. I know. He could have called the cops but he would have faced fraud charges.

He wrote a check and my kid hired in at Bosch where he has since had three promotions and a hefty increase in pay.

Just wanted to share that bit of history so the DIYs who read this will understand at least this pro's reason for not doing customer equipment.

 

[tweakedlogic]

Yeah, I thought about that. But work is hard to find her in Memphis right now. I was going to post an add on craigslist and see if anyone replies. If not, I'll figure it out. I know I'm not going to get warranty. While it would be nice, I can't afford to do this any other way. I ahve confidence in myself. I know there will be a few hurdles, but i'm smart enough to find away around.
Thanks.

 

[hvaclover]

Hint: with the money you are ready to commit to you could get a pro do the job.

Just shop 'til you drop.

 

[Home Air Direct]

Yeah, I thought about that. But work is hard to find her in Memphis right now. I was going to post an add on craigslist and see if anyone replies. If not, I'll figure it out. I know I'm not going to get warranty. While it would be nice, I can't afford to do this any other way. I ahve confidence in myself. I know there will be a few hurdles, but i'm smart enough to find away around.
Thanks.

You will find help, it just may take a bit more effort than calling the first big ad in the YP. Be patient and consistent. Tell each contractor or tech that you interview that you own the equipment, you have done this much so far and that you are more than happy to pay them to complete and start-up. You will find someone. Your Craig's list thought is very good start. I called a contractor listed in Craigs list yesterday evening in the Charlotte, NC area to see if he would be interested in helping me with one of my clients and I think I may have found a winner on my first call.

I truely understand that contractors have overheads that require them to have to present some of the prices that they do, and of course they deserve profit like all of us for hard work and education. But the fact is, there are people who are in situations that they did not ask to be in because of local and national economics, that under normal circumstances, would be happy to call their local guy and just have the work taken care of, but now they just can't. I think that gets overlooked by contractors.

As far as the warranty, you will have the "out of the box" factory warranty. All that will be required, it the name, address and phone # of the contractor that was present and that billed your for connection and start-up, and the dealer that you purchased the products from if it is not aformentioned contractor.

Good luck with your project. Oh....one last thing.....Don't call Hvaclover:jester:

 

[hvaclover]

You will find help, it just may take a bit more effort than calling the first big ad in the YP. Be patient and consistent. Tell each contractor or tech that you interview that you own the equipment, you have done this much so far and that you are more than happy to pay them to complete and start-up. You will find someone. Your Craig's list thought is very good start. I called a contractor listed in Craigs list yesterday evening in the Charlotte, NC area to see if he would be interested in helping me with one of my clients and I think I may have found a winner on my first call.

I truely understand that contractors have overheads that require them to have to present some of the prices that they do, and of course they deserve profit like all of us for hard work and education. But the fact is, there are people who are in situations that they did not ask to be in because of local and national economics, that under normal circumstances, would be happy to call their local guy and just have the work taken care of, but now they just can't. I think that gets overlooked by contractors.

As far as the warranty, you will have the "out of the box" factory warranty. All that will be required, it the name, address and phone # of the contractor that was present and that billed your for connection and start-up, and the dealer that you purchased the products from if it is not aformentioned contractor.

Good luck with your project. Oh....one last thing.....Don't call Hvaclover:jester:

Hey, if the contractor puts his name on the registration that makes HIM liable for the warranty.

You are asking the contractor, who has no stake in the warranty process to sign documents that circumvent the factory clause concerning the voiding of the warranty i.e. equipment bought over the internet and the purchaser being the one the warranty goes to. .

Nah ah no way. For one thing it's fraud. It would be equal to me giving the Home owner a written quote then signing his name to it and forcing him to pay me for a new system.

C'mon Air direct! Call like it is. The warranty is only valid if a contractor signs it.

The contractor got paid to install DIY bought equipment and the price to cover warranty is not included in that price.

The expectation that the DIY has is to get a better price by buying and doing most of the work himself . The contractor agrees to a lower cost to do the work and assumes no liability for the warranty simply because that component of his overhead is not being passed on..

He legally cannot sign the warranty registration with out committing fraud against the mfgr.

 

[Home Air Direct]

Hey, if the contractor puts his name on the registration that makes HIM liable for the warranty.

You are asking the contractor, who has no stake in the warranty process to sign documents that circumvent the factory clause concerning the voiding of the warranty i.e. equipment bought over the internet and the purchaser being the one the warranty goes to. .

Nah ah no way. For one thing it's fraud. It would be equal to me giving the Home owner a written quote then signing his name to it and forcing him to pay me for a new system.

C'mon Air direct! Call like it is. The warranty is only valid if a contractor signs it.

The contractor got paid to install DIY bought equipment and the price to cover warranty is not included in that price.

The expectation that the DIY has is to get a better price by buying and doing most of the work himself . The contractor agrees to a lower cost to do the work and assumes no liability for the warranty simply because that component of his overhead is not being passed on..

He legally cannot sign the warranty registration with out committing fraud against the mfgr.

Ok, maybe I was speaking too broadly. I should not speak for your equipment mfg. We all are bad about that, but really most of us only have our own experiences to relate to.

My equipment lines are all out of the box and do not require registration, just proof of purchase in order to set the clock of ownership later on if a part warranty is required. This idea that warranties have this absolute tie to a specific contractor or even a specific homeowner is just nuts. The equipment that I represent does have an online registration by the homeowner in order to extend the parts warranty by an additional 5 years and only requires the name and address of the installing contractor. We have had a couple of instances to have this addressed by the manufacturer and it has yet to be a problem.

I will try to be tender, but the homeowner tie is a Goodman rue. Part of their outlandish warranty claims comes from the "original homeowner" clause. Contractors, everyday run across equipment that they did not install and in some cases, the homeowner is not the original purchaser, that require warranty service. The homeowner should expect to pay for the part until the contractor is reimbursed, then the contractor can refund or credit the homeowner in some cases charge a fee for warranty administration if they did not have a relationship with the homeowner.

The DIY arena is a very minor market in HVAC. Contractors who are willing to participate will create systems that work for them and contractors who are opposed, should not waste their own valuable time protesting a market that is less than 3% of the total.

 

[hvaclover]

Quote Contractors who are willing to participate will create systems that work for them end quote

Ain't no duct system gonna be right if joe six pack is putting sweat equity doing the heavy lifting i.e. the duct system. The one I find are either overdone or undersized.

Hey look guy, i ain't saying you don't have a right to sell the way you do, i'm just venting cause it rankles me when a pro gets pulled into a warranty scenario that an HO is trying scam .

You have my respect.

 

[Home Air Direct]

You have my respect.

Ditto :thumbsup:

 

[zootjeff]

Ditto :thumbsup:

Do you guys just sit here and war back and forth all day long?

I've ordered my Goodman unit, pad, coil, and TXV valve. They get here on Tuesday.

I've ordered my base can, base trunk, and transition ducts.

I've also ordered my line set and thermostat along with a bunch of PEX where I'm moving pluming around the furnace and now is the time.

I've decided to go DIY. I'll let you know how it turns out.

-Jeff

 

[veesubotee]

Where are you?

Just curious. 3 tons seems a little high for 1500 SF in total shade.\


V

 

[hvaclover]

Just curious. 3 tons seems a little high for 1500 SF in total shade.\


V

If the OP gets that two stage 16 SEER, it'll never get off low cool mode.

 

[dac122]

I don't wish to get in the middle of a dispute that is probably a microcosm of similar disputes in the industry, but I would like to add there are many variations on the DIYer theme.

For instance, recently a buddy got a pro to replace his system, and I offered to help. The pro seemed more than happy to have some help.

The pro bought the system, and we both installed it. He did the critical work, and I took orders and did the grunt work: cleanup, pickup, feeding line sets to him thru tough spots, etc. I mean what pro likes to break down cardboard boxes, pick up wire scraps, and strip Armaflex off scrap copper?

In the end, the pro got profit on the system, labor, got home earlier, and took a few hundred off for my help. My buddy saved a little on the system and got a quality install. I learned a few extra trips and verified my buddy's install.

While not the huge savings some DIYers expect, I'd call that a win-win.

 

[tinner73]

Just curious. 3 tons seems a little high for 1500 SF in total shade.\


V

and there is where the problem lies. mostly likely too big.

 

[Home Air Direct]

and there is where the problem lies. mostly likely too big.

That is an assumption that may or may not be correct. The OP has not given you enough information to say that without guessing yourself.

The guy is in Dixieland and it gets hot. He has considered a 2.5 ton , but is considering 16 SEER, so where is his choice? He also lives in a home built in the mid 1950's. He is going to add some insulation and change windows, but we all know that there is just so much that can be done. He also has been getting local quotes and loads that indicate he is on the line for size.

Everyone always wants to assume that there has been no thought on the part of the HO. I understand that the pro's mindset is never going to change, and that often the pros are protecting the DIY'er, but not every case is going to have a bad outcome.

 

[Home Air Direct]

I don't wish to get in the middle of a dispute that is probably a microcosm of similar disputes in the industry, but I would like to add there are many variations on the DIYer theme.

For instance, recently a buddy got a pro to replace his system, and I offered to help. The pro seemed more than happy to have some help.

The pro bought the system, and we both installed it. He did the critical work, and I took orders and did the grunt work: cleanup, pickup, feeding line sets to him thru tough spots, etc. I mean what pro likes to break down cardboard boxes, pick up wire scraps, and strip Armaflex off scrap copper?

In the end, the pro got profit on the system, labor, got home earlier, and took a few hundred off for my help. My buddy saved a little on the system and got a quality install. I learned a few extra trips and verified my buddy's install.

While not the huge savings some DIYers expect, I'd call that a win-win.

Inspirational.

There are pros who are happy with the pay for the job done. Few of them reside here, but they do exist and many are just as good at their trade as those who will not, they just have a different business plan.

Thanks for sharing that. Sometimes the reason a HO tries to DIY this project is personal greed, but that are many cases where they are backed against the wall and have to do the best they can to work with the resources that they have. Shame on anyone who casts a stone at those who, because of economic hardship have to try and limit their spending to a minimum.

I imagine that my time here is limited because I am a champion for the DIY'er and yes, if you drill it down, my reasons are selfish, but in the end, no more selfish than the pro who is discouraging the DIY instead of educating.

 

[tinner73]

That is an assumption that may or may not be correct. The OP has not given you enough information to say that without guessing yourself.

The guy is in Dixieland and it gets hot. He has considered a 2.5 ton , but is considering 16 SEER, so where is his choice? He also lives in a home built in the mid 1950's. He is going to add some insulation and change windows, but we all know that there is just so much that can be done. He also has been getting local quotes and loads that indicate he is on the line for size.

Everyone always wants to assume that there has been no thought on the part of the HO. I understand that the pro's mindset is never going to change, and that often the pros are protecting the DIY'er, but not every case is going to have a bad outcome.

this is why i said "most likely"...i don't know if i am right and you don't know if i am wrong. what we both know is that 400 sq feet per ton is waaay extreme. i am doing 2400 sq feet w/3 tons. so i'll stand by my assumption that is going to be over sized. the whole problem with this scenerio is that most people don't have the right info and are preyed upon by people only interested in making a quick buck.

 

[Home Air Direct]

this is why i said "most likely"...i don't know if i am right and you don't know if i am wrong. what we both know is that 400 sq feet per ton is waaay extreme. i am doing 2400 sq feet w/3 tons. so i'll stand by my assumption that is going to be over sized. the whole problem with this scenerio is that most people don't have the right info and are preyed upon by people only interested in making a quick buck.

I agree with you that 3 tons on 1,500 squares is probably too much. I think that one of the things that happens is that homeowners gauge the ability of their next system based on their current antiquated equipment that is limping by on the edge of death. This HO needs at the least to do a detailed block load to at least be close, and if possible, a full manual J.

Your comment "preyed upon". The HO is being "preyed upon" by local contractors who are more interested in giving him a bigger system than he needs. Not all online resources are out for the "quick buck". That may be your view, but it is not always the case. Even though you are not on sight, manual J loads do get done, and duct designs are considered. If you think call backs are bad for a contractor, I can tell you that a "return" is one of the messiest things that you can imagine at the online level.

I am little fussy this morning (too many fireworks last night) and not letting it bounce off of me as well as I should. Just don't assume that you work harder than someone else. Until you have been in other shoes, you don't know the extent that another form of your business goes to for the customer. It just is not exactly the way to do it, so it must be wrong.

 

[tinner73]

Your comment "preyed upon". The HO is being "preyed upon" by local contractors who are more interested in giving him a bigger system than he needs. Not all online resources are out for the "quick buck". That may be your view, but it is not always the case. Even though you are not on sight, manual J loads do get done, and duct designs are considered. If you think call backs are bad for a contractor, I can tell you that a "return" is one of the messiest things that you can imagine at the online level.

I am little fussy this morning (too many fireworks last night) and not letting it bounce off of me as well as I should. Just don't assume that you work harder than someone else. Until you have been in other shoes, you don't know the extent that another form of your business goes to for the customer. It just is not exactly the way to do it, so it must be wrong.

the "preyed upon" comment wasn't necessarily aimed toward you but if your conscious is bothering you ..so be it. i did visit your website and it tells me that you would sell me a 4 tonner.:whistling2:..interesting. the exact problems about guessing that you complain about here...are promoted on your own website.
http://www.hvacopcost.com/equipsize.html according to your website he needs anywhere from 3-3.3 tons??? guessing at it from me is bad.. but OK for you?:huh: is it OK for your company to size his house from 400 miles away? is that your standard? is the bar that low? is this not part of the problem with a lot of houses? wrong equipment and inadequate duct work.
as i look at your website i see it says "to estimate heating and cooling equipment size* enter the square footage of your home" then in small print at the bottom it says " this calculator should not be used to determine the size of a new hvac unit, it is intended for cost comparision purposes only. how is this not an exact contradiction? this is exactly what is wrong with the residential industry.