[RyanDD]

Hi I have to decide between two different contractors who offer different models. One Carrier the other Bryant.

I'd be getting the Bryant Furnace: EvolutionSystem plus 986T

(I can't post links yet ahhh! Check below)

I can't find a price for this one.

This model is described elsewere as having:

"Perfect Humidity technology removes up to 127% more moisture than a standard furnace"

I know all AC are supposed to remove humidity to some degree but I didn't know how much the furnace had to do with that...is it true that this model actually gives some extra dehumidification? Because I thought that was ALL the AC so is this an easy claim to make?

The Carrier is the 59nt (check for links in next post.)

Which is 3800$ to 4300$.

So the Bryant may cost more but it would be worth it for me if there is any truth to some extra dehumidifcation.

Thanks for any feedback.

Ryan

 

[RyanDD]

Here's the Bryant link, it's the second one down:
http://www.advancedhvac.ca/furnace/

Here's the Carrier link:
http://ncshvac.com/?product=carrier-59tn6-series

 

[beenthere]

They will both remove the same amount of humidity under the same conditions. Its the VS blower and the controller that improve humidity control over a standard furnace.

The Bryant is more expensive because ts a modulating furnace, where the Carrier model is only a 2 stage.

 

[yuri]

The modulating furnace will give you more even heat and it may feel more like a house with hot water radiators. Longer cycles and less on/off periods where you may feel cool.

The variable speed blower can slow down to run the AC coil colder which removes more moisture than a regular furnace. Same motor in both those furnaces.

 

[RyanDD]

The modulating furnace will give you more even heat and it may feel more like a house with hot water radiators. Longer cycles and less on/off periods where you may feel cool.

The variable speed blower can slow down to run the AC coil colder which removes more moisture than a regular furnace. Same motor in both those furnaces.

The thing is I said the second one down on the link, I don't think it's fully modulating, just 2 stage? Does it still have demidification like it says?

"Perfect Humidity technology allows superior humidity control and removes more moisture than a standard furnace."

It says that on a 2-stage furnace, wondering if Bryant has something specific to it even on a furnace that's not fully modulating.

 

[yuri]

To me they look identical but I am a Lennox guy and not totally familiar with the latest Carrier/Bryant line.

However Carrier and Bryant and Payne are literally identical as they are owned by United Technologies. They use identical parts in some.

The smart cooling technology I believe is when you have a "matching" air conditioner according to them. There is a technology called communicating thermostats which those furnaces can use BUT you need a higher end AC which has the communicating features to get the dehumidifcation programming feature.

Basically it is using a computer signal and can provide feedback to the thermostat instead of the on/off system we have had forever. With a 2 stage AC the thermostat can be set for dehumidification and if the conditions are correct the furnace board and the program with it and the thermostat can slow down your furnace fan and run the AC on a lower stage to get you more dehumification. It is pretty complicated to explain and you should get the dealer to do it.

Point being you have to get a matched furnace and AC and communicating thermostat to use the extra features and that can be pricey. It is just built into the furnace board programming and has nothing to do with a 2 stage or modulating furnace.

It does get a bit more complex with the way the thermostat "modulates" your heat cycles as it uses a algorithm to average them out over a couple of days and tries to give you longer more even cycles. Modulate is a industry buzzword and there are 6 or more different ways to do it and each brand does it differently.

At the end of the day it is up to the dealer and salesperson to explain the features totally to you. I would get them back and ask them to describe them. To me it looks like they are the same furnace and one dealer may be selling one for less. Make sure the warranties are the same.

Any furnace with a ECM Variable speed furnace fan ( not just ECM as some are fixed speeds) will give you better dehumidifying as the fan can be slowed down and the coil run cooler. That technology is 10-15 yrs old.

The communicating thermostat technology is about 5 yrs old and adds more features and programs to the thermostat and furnace.

 

[RyanDD]

Ok that's good to know, I know we have a Lennox that's not 2 stage or anything so anything extra on the Bryant wouldn't make a difference from the 2 stage Carrier.

He's coming to give a quote any minute now. For now it's about the price difference between the two stage and the modulating. As that seems to be the difference I'm really looking for.

But does that also mean that a modulating furnace is useless with a AC that not modulating? We have the Lennox....ok the code isn't on it, but it wasn't modulating.

 

[yuri]

There are no modulating air conditioners unless you get into some VERY expensive over 18 SEER $6000 and over models.

Modulating furnaces are like a car with a 3 or 4 speed manual shift transmission or one with a automatic transmission.

There are 1 or 2 or 3 stage furnaces plus modulating furnaces.

ACs are 1 or 2 stage unless you get the uber high end ones like the Lennox XC25.

Do you live in Canada and where? Unless you live in a very humid area humidity removal is not a big deal. It is in Florida.

 

[user_12345a]

To benefit from the dehumidification feature you must find a installer that will set it up right.

Fan speed adjusted for outdoor unit, humidistat or t-stat which can signal fan to slow down.

It's a good feature, the 2-stage and mod furnaces are nice, but if you get one installed the same way a builder's unit is - total waste of money, and that's what happens.

Key is proper sizing and setup, even single speed a/c on 1 stage furnace can remove humidity wonderfully if not oversized - that is, unit running continuously in the most extreme heat u get.

In fact when you get into high-seer stuff the indoor coil is typically very large which reduces dehumidification -> runs warmer, takes longer to cool down/reach steady state.

 

[RyanDD]

There are no modulating air conditioners unless you get into some VERY expensive over 18 SEER $6000 and over models.

Modulating furnaces are like a car with a 3 or 4 speed manual shift transmission or one with a automatic transmission.

There are 1 or 2 or 3 stage furnaces plus modulating furnaces.

ACs are 1 or 2 stage unless you get the uber high end ones like the Lennox XC25.

Do you live in Canada and where? Unless you live in a very humid area humidity removal is not a big deal. It is in Florida.

Ok there's no modulating AC. I'm in Ottawa Canada but I have a heart condition were it's much easier on my heart if I can bring the humidity down which is why I'm deciding if a modulating Furnace would be worth the extra cost compare to a 2 stage. And the last three record breaking summers have felt like Florida. Not that I'd know:biggrin2:, but they've been worse.

You said: With a 2 stage AC the thermostat can be set for dehumidification and if the conditions are correct the furnace board and the program with it and the thermostat can slow down your furnace fan and run the AC on a lower stage to get you more dehumification.

I confused that with 'modulating' sorry.

Then I guess your saying a modulating furnace or 2 stage furnace is only more effective for dehumidification with a AC that has 2 stages? Like it won't make a difference with a single stage AC.

And following that, the only benefit with a modulating furnace would would be for heating in winter. As there would still be benefits there unreleated to the AC. Correct?

 

[yuri]

1) The only benefit of a modulating furnace is for Winter. If you live where I am and it is -40C with a 30 mph wind and you don't want any off cycles where you are waiting for the furnace to cut in then a modulating (mod) furnace will give you longer cycles and you may feel like the heat you get from a boiler. Elderly people like that as they sit around. Very rich people like it as they want "more" comfort. Basically the new electronic thermostats (tstats) we have are accurate to 1 deg F so a 2 stage furnace can come close in comfort and you are not waiting a long time for the heat to cut in.

2) A one stage AC needs a lot of airflow and will cool your house off too quick and not run long enough to remove humidity only with a demand for humidity only Infinity thermostat program.

3) Your best bet is to get a 2 stage furnace with a ECM variable speed motor. Talk to the owner of the company or service manager and say you want them to setup the furnace for maximum humidity removal. They should set the fan for 350 cfm per ton of your AC and could possibly go as low as 325 if your ducts are big. Out of the box the furnace is set for 400 cfm. If they have no clue as to what you are talking about then find one who does. Otherwise you are wasting the technology and won't get the extra humidity removal benefit.

All the other advertising and info you see on those links/sites describes features you can use if you have "their" matching 2 stage AC or super deluxe variable capacity AC like the XC25. That dog is $6000-8000 for the AC only. Great for Texas or Florida but will never pay for itself in a hundred years in Canada as our season is too short.

 

[user_12345a]

On any furnace with an variable ecm motor the airflow for a/c can be set to 400 to 450 cfm per ton and reduced on demand when the humidity is above a certain threshold.

In fact, it can be done on even a single stage furnace with a relay, or sometimes not even one if it uses a separate tap for continuous fan.

Having the fan set to the minimum which won't freeze the coil does reduce capacity and efficiency as well as make distribution to distant rooms more of an issue.

For ottawa all you need is a basic 13 to 15 seer single stage a/c -> i think you can get a $400 government rebate for upgrading to 15. (...and a 14 with an ecm motor, right coil will hit 15)

 

[beenthere]

Might want to check into getting a whole house dehumidifier. They dehumidify even when the house doesn't need cooling.

 

[yuri]

Might want to check into getting a whole house dehumidifier. They dehumidify even when the house doesn't need cooling.

That is a good idea. Lennox sells them.

http://www.lennox.com/products/indoor-air-quality/humidity-control/hcwhd

 

[user_12345a]

pricey, very pricey.

 

[yuri]

Not if you have a mold or health problem.

Probably in the same price as a HRV installed or less. All it does is bypass air off the ductwork and cool it and condense the moisture. VERY simple machine.

 

[user_12345a]

speaking of which, if it's medically necessary i think u may be able to deduct the cost as a medical expense.

a/c is on here, filter yes, dehumidifier is not but maybe could be disguised as a filter or something -> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/medical/

 

[RyanDD]

@yuri

Ok, I thought I should post any follow ups to my furnace hunt in the same thread.

The Bryant guy didn't show up Friday. I got quote for another company, few questions:

a) It's from 'Comfortmaker' I thought it would be Carrier...is it true it's the same furnace? It is much cheaper than I thought it would be. Wondering if I'm getting what I pay for.

b)It's 3600$ for a two stage but 3900$ for one with an added variable speed ECM motor blower. What are the adavantges of the extra feature?
(I forgot to ask him about setting the fan up for maximum humidity removal)

Also, the other guy is coming this aft about the Bryant. He called friday aft and said there was a problem at the office and that he only just found out he missed my appointement. Even though I called the website number and they said he would be coming still. He also said he could install sooner than the other guy by 'squeezing me in'. I'm not sure how questionable all that is. Should I keep this apointement for the sake of looking at the Bryant quote?

 

[user_12345a]

to my knowledge all carrier 2-stage furnaces have ecm motors.

There are two types, the cheaper kind with fixed torque taps, and the fully featured type.

The fully featured type has a different controller on it and maintains constant airflow as duct conditions change. The board requests a certain cfm and the motor varies it's speed to delivery it -> as the filter gets dirty the motor speeds up. Same goes for closing off vents to balance.

Offers excellent control over airflow, with the less expensive motor the installer selects the tap to roughly get proper airflow +/- a bit; it can't be dialed in and is a crap shoot especially if your installer doesn't check static pressure.

If you have the dough the extra $300 is well worth it.

 

[yuri]

Even though United Technologies owns ICP ( international Comfort Products which they bought only a few yrs ago) they are not the same quality as the higher end Carriers and Bryants.

ICP is like yer Volkswagen and Bryant and Carrier are like yer Audi which is owned by VW also.

Lennox owns Armstrong but lets them still run their line to different standards than Lennox. Just because a major company owns several lines of ACs does not make them equal. They do it to sell too and encompass the whole market from people who want the cheapest just blow cold air noisy budget model to the Lamborghini or Lexus quality folks.

United Technologies owns the Carrier/Braynt/Payne line and a totally independant ICP line of Keeprite/Heil/Comfortmaker. Nothing wrong with ICP units if installed properly. Can be a bit louder as the metal is thinner in the fans but I have no problem with them.