[oba97]

I am looking at buying a very small, older cottage. One of the issues is it has a Federal Pacific stab-lok panel located in the kitchen. I got a quote to update it, but ran into a problem. The electrician is saying there isn’t enough width in the wall cavity to fit a new 14.25” panel. His suggestion is either install a outdoor panel or move the box to the bedroom next to the kitchen. I believe the issue has to do with a double stud at the window. The box is located behind the door in the yellow circle. The place is in Michigan so I have some concerns with weather. Any thoughts on other options? I was hoping to find a “narrow” panel box, but I don’t think they exist.

 

[Jim Port]

Depending on the code cycle adopted you will need an outside emergency disconnect. There will also be the issue that the cables will need to be extended from the existing box to the new panel location. The junction will need to be permanently accessible

 

[Frank Lavorngia]

The electrician can trim the 2x4 down a bit with a sharp sawsaw blade. Also a couple good licks from a sledge hammer and it will go right in just fine, I;ve done many many of them with no issues. Just make sure all the breakables are put away.
You only need an extra half to 3/4s of an inch, right?

 

[joed]

Surface mount the box on the wall instead of between the studs and build a cover over it.

 

[Frank Lavorngia]

I am looking at buying a very small, older cottage.

That kitchen is very cozy looking. I love the red fridge. The outside panels are very common in the south and south east. But you're right not so much in colder climates.
You should get another quote. Also if you could get a pic of the meter base and mast to post.

 

[oba97]

This is the best pic I have of the meter and post.

 

[Frank Lavorngia]

I am pretty sure that is a 200 amp meter and the mast looks 200A rated as well. By chance is the electric panel directly behind the meter base on the inside?
It is seriously not that difficult to get an extra 1/2 inch inbetween those inside wall studs. We do it all the time.
I've never had the width between the studs be a factor in me putting the panel elsewhere.

 

[oba97]

Yes it’s 200amp and located behind the meter.

 

[Frank Lavorngia]

Yes it’s 200amp and located behind the meter.

Okay, Just bump the in wall 2x4 stud over a bit with a sledge hammer and install the new panel in the same location. It's only a half to 3/4 inch, come on man.... it's easy.

 

[tstex]

I agree just adjusting the inner 2x4's that are double studded and you are home free....If took off 1/2" on both sides, plenty of room to install the correct panel, plus no junction boxes, splicing and similar and no need for a sledgehammer. When using a sawzaw, it will vibrate like hell so secure any fragile glass, pottery and other.

 

[Jim Port]

A circular saw can remove most of the stud slice and finish with an oscillating tool.

 

[u2slow]

I would hire (or get a quote from) a 'handier' electrical contractor. I prefer main panels inside.

 

[seharper]

Any thoughts on other options? I was hoping to find a “narrow” panel box, but I don’t think they exist.

Yeah, they don't exist, and the reason is wire bending space rules that were imposed after 200A services started to become common - it was realized wires were being bent in a bad way to fit into those narrow panels.

I would advise having a carpenter come in and rework the wall as needed to provide a standard 14-1/2" width stud bay. (14-1/2" being the standard spacing of 16" stud centers using two-by lumber, which is 1-1/2" wide actually).

Depending on the code cycle adopted you will need an outside emergency disconnect.

Michigan hasn't landed on NEC 2020 yet, but an outside "meter-main" style disconnect certainly enhances DIY maintainability of panels. If you had a meter-main today you could've DIYed this panel replacement. They're code as of NEC 2020, and have been mandated for years in the sunbelt by many cities- different deal in the snowbelt, nobody wants to have to don galoshes and wade through snow to reset a tripped main.

Although "tripping a main" is a black swan event that should not ever happen and rarely ever does happen unless there's a huge problem. (or a panel is grossly overloaded by adding circuit after circuit and never doing a NEC Article 220 Load Calculation, we may see more of that with the countless amateur installations of EV charging where nobody ever does a Load Calc).

 

[oba97]

Thank you all for your input. Assuming we close on the cottage I will look to get addition quotes and push to have the space “expanded”.

 

[Drachenfire]

A little off the topic but for those who may not know and wondering what the big deal is about replacing the Federal Pacific (FP) panel, they are a fire hazard.

The Stab-Lok was first manufactured by FP in 1954. From the 1950s to the 1980s, FP Stab-Lok was one of the most popular brands of circuit breaker with over 100 million of them installed in homes in the USA and Canada. They were eventually discovered to be unsafe and the cause of numerous house fires resulting in at least 13 deaths.

Stab-Lok went through a certification process to ensure it was safe, and it was approved by Underwriters Laboratories (UL). What was not known was that FP had developed a sophisticated way to fool UL’s testing processes and get certificates even though the Stab-Lok was not up to standard. Tests conducted in 1982 showed that even when electrical loads were increased to 135%, the breakers, which should have tripped every time, did not always do so. Failure of a breaker to trip can cause overheating which can lead to a fire.

This deception only came to light when FP went bankrupt and was bought by Reliance Electric in 1979. When Reliance discovered what FP had done, they fired many senior FP executives, sued the previous owners, and stopped production of the Stab-Lok. UL also withdrew certification for the Stab-Lok.

I had my own issues with FP when I bought my now 50-year-old house in 1996. I was trying to add outlets in the garage on a dedicated circuit but could not find breakers to fit. Researching where to get breakers was how I found out about the defective panels. A few nights later, the main breaker tripped in the middle of the night for no apparent reason. There were no thunderstorms and as it was a cool night we did not even have the AC on, just a ceiling fan.

I took this as a wake-up call to replace that panel ASAP. I had it replaced with a GE 200 amp panel and have never had any issues since.

Today, many insurance companies will not underwrite a policy on homes with FP panels.

 

[ShotBlaster]

If you're a DIYer, I'd just have an electrician install a 200 amp exterior disconnect, and replace the panel yourself. The 200amp disconnect will allow you to replace the panel at your convenience.