Bedrooms have no ceiling light, light switch controls one electrical outlet?

27168 Views 16 Replies 8 Participants Last post by 220/221, May 25, 2009

notenoughtime

Discussion Starter · May 15, 2009

I would like to add a ceiling fan with light to the swich. Plenty of room above bedrooms to work. Switch has one direct line (14/2) to outlet. Oddly enough, switch has two black wires attached to the top and bottom of the switch and both white wires are connected? House built 1966. Above, in the attack, I see two wires coming out directly above bedroom switch location. One wire is heading directly over to the electrical outlet being controlled by the switch and the other wire is, I assume, heading to the bedroom closet light and on to the other outlets in the room.

Question: Can I cut the 14/2 wire going to the outlet from the switch and tap in (juction box) to the non-switch wire going to the bedroom closet and other outlets to make the controlled switch hot all the time?

Then use the wire left in the wall going to the switch to pull (thread) down the new wire that will go from the switch to the new ceiling light?

If I am going to install a ceiling fan with light, what wire should I use and should I install an extra switch? What do I hook that wire to at the switch?

Thanks for the help!

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joed

· #2 · May 15, 2009

You will likely not be able to use the old cable as a pull. It is probably stapled to the studs.
You could easily remove the existing box, pull a new cable from above and install an old work box. Use a 14/3 cable then you will have separate control for fan and light.

You can tap into the cable coming from the closet to permanently power the receptacle.

220/221

· #3 · May 15, 2009

Oddly enough, switch has two black wires attached to the top and bottom of the switch and both white wires are connected?

Standard practice. One cable is power coming in, the other goes to the recep. The power (black) is connected/disconnected by the switch.The white is the "return" path dor the current.

What you need to do is:

Turn off the power and....

1) remove the existing switch box. It is usually pretty easy.

2) enlarge the switch box hole to accept a 3 gang (plastic) box.

3) Run a 14/3 from the switch box to the ceiling fan location. You can usually find a joist close enough to center to mount your fan box (I use fan/pan boxes)

if you get that far I will tell you how to reassemble the wiring.

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johnnyboy

· #4 · May 15, 2009

notenoughtime said:
Oddly enough, switch has two black wires attached to the top and bottom of the switch and both white wires are connected?

Nothing odd about it, that's how it's done. A switch breaks the hot wire, the neutrals just pass through. One set of wires is the supply, the other goes to the device.

Tap off of the line side of the switch and run it to the outlet, run neutral as well of course. It will always be on.

Run a line off of the load side to your fan. Walla.

notenoughtime said:
I see two wires coming out directly above bedroom switch location. One wire is heading directly over to the electrical outlet being controlled by the switch and the other wire is, I assume, heading to the bedroom closet light and on to the other outlets in the room.

couldn't tell ya. there could be a third line coming in from below the switch somewhere.

notenoughtime said:
If I am going to install a ceiling fan with light, what wire should I use and should I install an extra switch? What do I hook that wire to at the switch?

i got a fan with a remote :thumbup:

notenoughtime

Discussion Starter · #5 · May 15, 2009

You all are quick! Thank you for the information.

To recap, I will:

Turn the power off

Cut both wires (hot wire going to closet and switch wire going to attack) and combine in junction box to allow switched wire to be in hot all the time

Pull a 14/3 wire from new ceiling fan / light location to switch area.

Add larger switch box to allow for light switch and fan switch (or just get a remote

)

When I get that far and need further wiring help, ask.

Thanks again!

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220/221

· #6 · May 15, 2009

Why would you cut both wires?

Just tie them together in the switch box.

notenoughtime

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 15, 2009

OK. I am on the same page as you all now.

The 3 gang plastic box is to accomadate the two switches as well as serve as the junction box for the oulet connection?

To tie together in the 3 gang plastic box, I connect existing black to black and white to white?

surrogate

· #8 · May 15, 2009

Before you mess with any of the wiring, you should choose what model fan you are going to buy. My Casablanca and Minka fans have wall controls that only require 14-2 wire to control both the fan and light.

InPhase277

· #9 · May 15, 2009

notenoughtime said:
OK. I am on the same page as you all now.

The 3 gang plastic box is to accomadate the two switches as well as serve as the junction box for the oulet connection?

To tie together in the 3 gang plastic box, I connect existing black to black and white to white?

You don't need a 3-gang if you only have switches for the fan and light. What 220 was saying is that power is already at the switch location, and that you don't need to add a junction box to make the receptacle live all the time.

Disconnect the wires in the switch. Remove the switch box and make the hole big enough to accept the new box. Drop the 14-3 from the attic. Now you should have three cables: two existing, and one new. Put them all in the new box. If you want to keep the receptacle on a switch, use a 3-gang box. But if you want to only switch the light and fan, use a 2-gang box

Option 1: Keep Receptacle on switch, and add two new switches:

Use a 3-gang box. Put all three cables in the new box and connect all the white wires together, and all the grounds together. From the cable that brings power in, connect 3 pieces of scrap black wire about 8" long. Place each of these on one terminal of new single pole switches. Now you will have 3 wires left, one red and two black. Place these on the other terminal of the new switches. Extend and connect the grounds to each switch as well.

Option 2: Make receptacle live all the time, and add two new switches:

Use a 2-gang box. Put all three cables in the new box and connect all the white wires together, and all the grounds together. The two black wires from the original cables will be connected together, and you need to connect two scrap pieces of black wire about 8" to these as well. Place each of these on one terminal of new single pole switches. Now you will have 2 wires left, one red and one black. Place these on the other terminal of the new switches. Extend and connect the grounds to each switch as well.

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kbsparky

· #10 · May 15, 2009

We would not have to install any larger box on such an installation. Simply use a LuTron combination fan/light control in a single gang box:

Of course, we would also make the existing switched-receptacle always hot when installing an overhead light, since it appears that the entire outlet is switched. :whistling2:

FYI, such outlets are no longer considered to be compliant with the so-called 6-foot rule when utilized as a "lighting" outlet under section 210.52(2) of the 2008 Code.

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vsheetz

· #11 · May 15, 2009

surrogate said:
Before you mess with any of the wiring, you should choose what model fan you are going to buy.

Agreed - Highly recommended to ensure you know the requirements of the fans you are going to install.

notenoughtime

Discussion Starter · #12 · May 15, 2009

Again, Thank you all for the great information. I believe I will now be successful.

kbsparky,

You noted "so-called 6-foot rule when utilized as a "lighting" outlet under section 210.52(2) of the 2008 Code."

This code is referring to temporary fixtures and the length of cord allowed to operate off a switch?

I am going to hardwire the ceiling fan and light from the wall switch.

kbsparky

· #13 · May 15, 2009

notenoughtime -- the Code requires general purpose receptacle outlets to be located within 6 feet of the start of any wall space. Measuring around a room along unbroken wall lines, that essentially makes the maximum spacing between outlets 12 feet. Some folks call this the "12 foot rule" while others refer to it as the "6-foot rule"

In any case, when you control the entire outlet as your lighting outlet with a wall switch, it can no longer be counted as one of the required convenience outlets in that room.

Most folks prefer to have us rewire all the outlets always "hot" when we install an overhead lighting outlet, whether or not it is part of a ceiling fan assembly.

notenoughtime

Discussion Starter · #14 · May 15, 2009

Thanks!

I plan on following InPhase277 Option 2 method. So the outlet will be hot.

Personally, I very much dislike switched outlets.

The 1 gang box switch for ceiling fan and light looks interesting but make cause wire overcrowding.

220/221

· #15 · May 15, 2009

The 3 gang plastic box is to accomadate the two switches as well as serve as the junction box for the oulet connection?

I was assuming that you wanted to keep the original switched recep.

If you want it hot, use a 2 gang box. for fan and light.

I avoid double switches because it is generally very simple to remove the 1g box and the larger 2G opening gives you nore room to work in the wall and in the box.. I also like things to look "stock".

I use standard 2 gang plastic nail on box. I cut the nails and nail holders off and screw the box to the stud with drywall screws. A dab of caulk over the screws will protect them from contacting the wires (which really cant happen anyway) You can buy an approved "Smart Box" with the screws already installed but it is the same thing. Plastic cut in or old work boxes dont have as much room in them and the tabs dont hold nearly as well as screws to a stud, They also dont sit perfectly flush with the wall.

In the sw box, all grounds together leaving two pigtails to ground the switches.

All whites together.

Original blacks together along with two black pigtails that will provide power to the switches.

New black and red to send power from switches to fan and light.

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notenoughtime

Discussion Starter · #16 · May 25, 2009

All,

Got around to placing the junction box for the ceiling fan to be centered in the bedroom. There is a 2x4 joist right where the box needs to go?

What is the best method to approach this?

Just screw a junction box into the joist on one side or the other and let the fan be slightly off center and not use the ceiling fan mounting system purchased (the kind that supports the box between tow joist for support of the fan)?

Or, reconstruct the joist to make room?

Thanks

220/221

· #17 · May 25, 2009 (Edited)

There is a 2x4 joist right where the box needs to go?

That's a good thing.

You can usually find a joist close enough to center to mount your fan box (I use fan/pan boxes)

A fan/pan box is 4" round and only 1/2" deep. Pan=pancake. Mount it centered on the joist.

The fan support bracket/box system things are a royal pain in the ass BTW. If you have access, a 22 1/2" 2x4 is far superior.

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