[dg6464]

Hello Everyone,

Brand new to the forum... and new to framing (and finishing a basement), but have done my own handy work in the past.

I've got DriCore R+ Subfloor down already and will be framing walls on top and will be using 2x4's (8ft) for everything (with 2.5"-3" screws)... framing ~1" in front of the existing insulation for external walls (concrete foundation runs halfway up the wall as the foundation is mostly above grade... the upper half is the exterior of the home, which is using 2x6's with insulation and vapour barrier).

The question isn't really which wall to start on here... it's really should I start with the main soffit around the main ductwork / electrical / gas line area that will be a bulkhead and use that as a top plate for some walls?

A lot of the main space is taken up by a wide HVAC duct that runs along the main structural metal beam, along with the main electrical trunk of wires and the main gas line...

Said wide duct/main trunk of electrical and gas also just so happens to run into the external wall in which I would like to start framing first (as I am doing this in a phased approach and would like to finish my office and the adjacent furnace room).

So should I start with the main soffit and build the (non-structural of course) external and internal walls off of that (ie: use soffit to mount wall top plate)?

I can't really put a top plate directly on the joists in these areas, as the ductwork is there on both the external and internal walls framing the first two rooms here... because without the soffit framed, the top plate would in effect be floating in mid air, attached to nothing .

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Pictures and diagram of the planned build attached.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[Nealtw]

No one did you any favours here.

I am not a big fan of drycore but I would not have put that under the outside walls

Those outside walls, do you want new 8 ft walls or do you want to build the ledge?

Usually you start with outside walls but it depends a lot on what other trades leave you with.

 

[dg6464]

No one did you any favours here.

I am not a big fan of drycore but I would not have put that under the outside walls

Those outside walls, do you want new 8 ft walls or do you want to build the ledge?

Usually you start with outside walls but it depends a lot on what other trades leave you with.

Thanks for the quick reply! Yeah, I’m starting to realize that the builder did a crap job.

I know many folks don’t like DriCore, however I find it (2x2’ squares) easier than working with 4x8’ sheets of subfloor board and the bubble roles when you are doing everything with one person . In addition... I have one crawlspace area under the stairs (attached to furnace room) that is a PITA to get into just with me being 6’3” tall, let alone alongside 4’x8’ sheets of PSB and rolls of bubble underlay. So the DriCore went very easily and really warmed up the place. Installing it first is DriCore’s recommended method (before walls), so I just followed that.

Same goes for framing - I plan to build everything in place opposed to build and lift... because I’m just one person, in quarantine... lol. Not to mention what the builder left me with is a lot of stupid obstacles.

The plan is to build a full 8’ wall where I can on the externals in front of both sets of existing insulation. The shelf looks a bit ugly and is a PITA. Building the full 8’ will allow me to run electrical switches and lights a bit easier and have a consistent look.

However, if you feel a 4’ ledge around the whole place will be easier, I’m totally open to any ideas. The reason I feel it would be about the same effort is because the builder did have a finished area right in the middle that I ripped out (because it was just slightly wider than the width of the stairs and didn’t make any sense to keep). In that area, they used a ledge along the external wall... and where that was, they had taken out the existing insulation, framed 1/2” away from the concrete and re-did the insulation and vapor barrier... which id really like to prevent doing.

In addition to that, a large portion of the problem is also the 8’ internal walls I’ll have to build... so I guess the question still remains for those if I should just build the main soffit around the ductwork and use that as the top plate for the internal wall to start.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[Nealtw]

Thanks for the quick reply! Yeah, I’m starting to realize that the builder did a crap job.

I know many folks don’t like DriCore, however I find it (2x2’ squares) easier than working with 4x8’ sheets of subfloor board and the bubble roles when you are doing everything with one person . In addition... I have one crawlspace area under the stairs (attached to furnace room) that is a PITA to get into just with me being 6’3” tall, let alone alongside 4’x8’ sheets of PSB and rolls of bubble underlay. So the DriCore went very easily and really warmed up the place. Installing it first is DriCore’s recommended method (before walls), so I just followed that.

Same goes for framing - I plan to build everything in place opposed to build and lift... because I’m just one person, in quarantine... lol. Not to mention what the builder left me with is a lot of stupid obstacles.

The plan is to build a full 8’ wall where I can on the externals in front of both sets of existing insulation. The shelf looks a bit ugly and is a PITA. Building the full 8’ will allow me to run electrical switches and lights a bit easier and have a consistent look.

However, if you feel a 4’ ledge around the whole place will be easier, I’m totally open to any ideas. The reason I feel it would be about the same effort is because the builder did have a finished area right in the middle that I ripped out (because it was just slightly wider than the width of the stairs and didn’t make any sense to keep). In that area, they used a ledge along the external wall... and where that was, they had taken out the existing insulation, framed 1/2” away from the concrete and re-did the insulation and vapor barrier... which id really like to prevent doing.

In addition to that, a large portion of the problem is also the 8’ internal walls I’ll have to build... so I guess the question still remains for those if I should just build the main soffit around the ductwork and use that as the top plate for the internal wall to start.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

dg6464

1. insulate rim joist and add drywall backing blocks and VB to that.

2 build the exterior drops with fire stop to the wall.
fire stop can be 1/2" plywood, 1/2" OSB, or 1/2" drywall.
So depending on which wall we would be building it would be like this.
The fire stop is to slow a fire in the wall from spreading into the floor system above.

 

[Nealtw]

Insulation , blocks and VP, far right above the wall.

 

[dg6464]

Insulation , blocks and VP, far right above the wall.

Thank you very much - I think that makes sense.

Sorry the picture doesn't tell you much... there is already insulation, vapour barrier and (some) blocking up there (where the two furring boards attach to the joists) on the wall on the right in the picture you posted.

So I guess I will be temporarily removing / un-stapling the vapour barrier and pushing the insulation to the side in the areas I need to put some blocking every 24" on center... then will put the top plate in, using the blocking to attach to... and re-attach the vapour barrier.

I plan to use safe and sound green sound insulation in all rim-joists anyway, which doubles as a fire-block I believe, everything will be built using 2x4's (I got an order delivered from Home Depot with 200x 8ft 2x4's).

You think the above will be good as a fire block?
Any suggestions on avoiding the fireplace gas line (do I just not frame the top plate there... or should I just start the soffit to the right of the gas line)?

Attaching pictures so it makes sense what I am saying.

Also... any suggestions on framing in the corner (attaching pictures), where the two smaller HVAC vent runs go? There isn't enough room for a 2x4 top plate in that area against the wall (ugh), as they ran the vents to the edge and THEN jumped them under the joists a bit to close to the exterior wall... so it seems I'll have to use the first wall I am building as an anchor / support to start the second wall a little bit shorter until I get past and frame around the two HVAC vents?

Also a bit of a PITA because I'll be framing the window at the same time. Lots of little things to start :smile:.

Thanks again for the quick replies and suggestions.

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[Bud9051]

https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements?full_view=1

Tough start, wish you the best
Bud

 

[dg6464]

https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements?full_view=1

Tough start, wish you the best
Bud

Thanks! It'll be a challenge, but I'm up for it - not really much else to do during quarantine with a 1-year old running around upstairs.

 

[Nealtw]

Thank you very much - I think that makes sense.

Sorry the picture doesn't tell you much... there is already insulation, vapour barrier and (some) blocking up there (where the two furring boards attach to the joists) on the wall on the right in the picture you posted.

So I guess I will be temporarily removing / un-stapling the vapour barrier and pushing the insulation to the side in the areas I need to put some blocking every 24" on center... then will put the top plate in, using the blocking to attach to... and re-attach the vapour barrier.

I plan to use safe and sound green sound insulation in all rim-joists anyway, which doubles as a fire-block I believe, everything will be built using 2x4's (I got an order delivered from Home Depot with 200x 8ft 2x4's).

You think the above will be good as a fire block?
Any suggestions on avoiding the fireplace gas line (do I just not frame the top plate there... or should I just start the soffit to the right of the gas line)?

Attaching pictures so it makes sense what I am saying.

Also... any suggestions on framing in the corner (attaching pictures), where the two smaller HVAC vent runs go? There isn't enough room for a 2x4 top plate in that area against the wall (ugh), as they ran the vents to the edge and THEN jumped them under the joists a bit to close to the exterior wall... so it seems I'll have to use the first wall I am building as an anchor / support to start the second wall a little bit shorter until I get past and frame around the two HVAC vents?

Also a bit of a PITA because I'll be framing the window at the same time. Lots of little things to start :smile:.

Thanks again for the quick replies and suggestions.

Best Regards,

dg6464

The ducts in the corner are not a problem you would start with the drop around them

The blocks I talked about are above the wall with the insulation.

No insulation is not fire stop.

 

[dg6464]

Thanks.

"The drop around them", meaning the top plate isn't attached to anything (except the other 90 degree adjacent external wall we talked about)... then once the ducts are cleared, the top plate moves back to normal?

I understand that the existing insulation isn't a fire stop, but thought adding the additional safe and sound in all rim-joists acts as a fire stop, in addition to the top plates for the walls I am building.

Are you saying I need to build additional 1/2" plywood across the bottom of the 24" blocks I am using to attach the top plate of the wall to (in essence, my top plate for the external wall would then be sitting on the 1/2" plywood)?

Just trying to understand if you are saying I put 2x4 blocks every 24" on center, but push them 1/2" into the rim joists, then install 1/2" plywood flush to the rim joists that basically fill the whole gap... and if so.. why? I haven't seen that done before - I thought that the top plate was a good enough fire stop (especially if doing safe and sound insulation in all rim joists).

I might've been reading your drawings wrong... it sort of looks like you are suggesting a bulkhead / soffit along the office external wall(s) as well... or is that meant for the internal wall between the office and furnace room that will have the ductwork above the entire thing and need a soffit/bulkhead?

Thanks!

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[Nealtw]

Thanks.

"The drop around them", meaning the top plate isn't attached to anything (except the other 90 degree adjacent external wall we talked about)... then once the ducts are cleared, the top plate moves back to normal?

I understand that the existing insulation isn't a fire stop, but thought adding the additional safe and sound in all rim-joists acts as a fire stop, in addition to the top plates for the walls I am building.

Are you saying I need to build additional 1/2" plywood across the bottom of the 24" blocks I am using to attach the top plate of the wall to (in essence, my top plate for the external wall would then be sitting on the 1/2" plywood)?

Just trying to understand if you are saying I put 2x4 blocks every 24" on center, but push them 1/2" into the rim joists, then install 1/2" plywood flush to the rim joists that basically fill the whole gap... and if so.. why? I haven't seen that done before - I thought that the top plate was a good enough fire stop (especially if doing safe and sound insulation in all rim joists).

I might've been reading your drawings wrong... it sort of looks like you are suggesting a bulkhead / soffit along the office external wall(s) as well... or is that meant for the internal wall between the office and furnace room that will have the ductwork above the entire thing and need a soffit/bulkhead?

Thanks!




Best Regards,

dg6464

You are mixing things up one answer does not answer all the questions.

This would be the window wall from the far end to include all the 6" ducts.

The drywall is the fire stop to keep fire and or smoke contained in the wall.
The plywood is for strength and will be covered with drywall later.

If you are building a tall wall with out a drop for ducts or anything the top plate can be drywall, plywood, osb or 2x? but it has to reach the top plate of the existing wall. And that top plat is the fire stop.

 

[dg6464]

I just want to start by saying thank you very much again... this has been extremely helpful, I think I fully understand what I need to do to get started, let me know if I am off on anything:

1) External Furnace and Office Wall (east):

A) Temporarily unseat/un-staple vapour barrier.
B) Move insulation aside to insert 2x4 blocking every 24" on center.
C) Attach top plate of external wall to blocking, top plate is in line with existing external walls top plate and that makes me good for a fire stop.
D) Re-attach vapour barrier and ensure vapour barrier is adequately re-taped.
E) Safe and Sound Insulation in rim-joists closest to external wall and remainder.

2) External Office Window Wall (South):
A) Frame small drop/soffit/bulkhead in corner and half-way above windows to contain 6" ducts, ensuring fire-stop is adequate (1/2" of PSB, drywall, whatever). This will be made of 2x4's as that's all I ordered for now and I have plenty.
B) The top plate of this wall is attached to the drop/bulkhead/soffit initially, then once ducts are cleared, soffit stops and the wall becomes a full 8' wall with the top plate matching the exterior wall and becomes the fire stop.
C) Frame around window accordingly.
D) Insulate rim joists with safe and sound.

3) Internal Wall Between Furnace and Office with Drop/Soffit/Bulkhead:

A) Build large drop/soffit/bulkhead the whole room long using 2x4's, using the gas line as the outside edge of the soffit (ie: include the gas line in the bulkhead).
B) Build internal wall the whole way using the drop/soffit/bulkhead to attach the top plate of the wall... using something 1/2" on the outside and bottom as a fire stop.
C) Insulate rim joists and wall cavities (prior to drywalling) with Safe and Sound, to stop the furnace noise from entering the basement and the office.

A couple quick remaining questions:

1) Anything special you think I should do with the gas line with regards to my top plate for the whole east facing external wall? Or since I'll be building out the main soffit/bulkhead to include the gas line... it won't really matter how I frame the external wall... I can just briefly stop/start the top plate where the gas line is?

2) Is there any good in framing the internal walls surrounding the furnace room using 2x6's instead of 2x4's in order to get better sound insulation? Reason being... I want to silence it as much as possible as I take video calls and do presentations from my office.

3) For the internal wall... is there anything special I should to do brace the soffit/bulkhead where the internal wall top plate will be attaching? It's like a 6-8' wide span for 2x4's in it's entirety, and the length is almost the whole room... so the internal wall will sort of be starting almost in the middle of the bulkhead (to the right slightly of where the white furnace vent goes outside).

Thanks again - very great help!

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[Nealtw]

Start with the office wall you have 4 chooises on what the wall will look like


1 short wall with pieces of drops at ceiling
2. tall wall with pieces of drops
3. short wall with one drop.

4 tall wall with one drop.



I would do a continuous drop for the looks and to save the fiddly drywall filling.



You are still confused about what I have said about blocks so go read all that again. It is about he end wall.

 

[3onthetree]

It looks like you have clear joist spaces to move the ducts to align with their 1st floor penetrations. Those crossovers under the joists are inefficient and crap for soffits. I'd also move the gas line closer to the trunk, and don't see what the continuous 2x4 down the center of the office is protecting.

Just because the builder didn't coordinate MEP doesn't mean you have to live with it. More work, but given the $$ you are putting in evidenced by the Dricore and the millwork of the stair I see, the ceiling plane and floor height deserve you cleaning it up.

 

[dg6464]

Yeah, I totally agree.

I wish those things were something I was able to do myself... but unfortunately I lack a gas-fitters license for the gas line (and don't have a way of really having someone do construction in the home at the moment), so am trying to get as much done as I can by myself.

The 6" ducts might be something I can do, but manipulating where they come out of the main duct and patching the existing spot is probably a more difficult task than I'd be able to handle... considering they are on the "curve" of the main duct line. I'm not sure of the code of where you can hang them off of it and such... or why they would've done them in that way.

Thoughts?

Also not sure what you mean by the continuous 2x4?
Those seem to be a 1x4 fur strip... I've seen them used to run/attach wiring and such in other houses. I will be removing them for sure.

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[dg6464]

Sorry - do you mean fireblocks in general or the blocking for the top plates on the furnace (east) wall?

The reason I'm taking down the vapour barrier and moving insulation in the one small external rim joist where the blocking is going on the furnace / east external wall is because the 24" on center blocking I've got to put up in the rim joists has to go above the existing top plate of the finished wall in order for the new walls top plate to be parallel with it (this wall is external and runs North-South).

I think I understand both... will probably do a full drop on the south window wall (opposed to partial) for a more consistent look (this wall is external and runs East-West).

The east furnace wall (runs North-South) will be a full wall, but with the main drop attaching to it that will run parallel to the internal wall (which runs East-West).

I did re-read the drop discussion and the diagrams coming to the same conclusion, so might be missing something... the latest 1/2/3/4 picture you sent though I am unsure how to read (I might just be stupid).

Thanks again!

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[Nealtw]

Yeah, I totally agree.

I wish those things were something I was able to do myself... but unfortunately I lack a gas-fitters license for the gas line (and don't have a way of really having someone do construction in the home at the moment), so am trying to get as much done as I can by myself.

The 6" ducts might be something I can do, but manipulating where they come out of the main duct and patching the existing spot is probably a more difficult task than I'd be able to handle... considering they are on the "curve" of the main duct line. I'm not sure of the code of where you can hang them off of it and such... or why they would've done them in that way.

Thoughts?

Also not sure what you mean by the continuous 2x4?
Those seem to be a 1x4 fur strip... I've seen them used to run/attach wiring and such in other houses. I will be removing them for sure.

Best Regards,

dg6464

I was going to suggest that after you have done all the walls and drops you could just strap the ceiling with 2x4 and lower the ceiling 1 1/2" and reclaim some of that where the gas pipe is.

 

[3onthetree]

Come on now, I spotted a Dewalt slider and laser tripod so sheetmetal and black iron is probably something on your skillset horizon. Sometimes it's just the right tools if you're already handy and perform good workmanship at other things you do (insert safety warning with gas here).

If a 6" feed is moved along the same size portion of trunk it shouldn't affect anything. Easier to drop the duct to put in the collars. Can't follow the exact path of the crossover joist spaces, but you get the idea.

The gas line I wouldn't want the transition to copper to be buried in a soffit anyway. I'd also extend the black iron all the way to the wall or move it into the furnace room for access.

The two ceiling straps looked like 2x4s, the center one I didn't see any romex or anything its protecting. Don't know why but it looks like 2x3s as bridging too, with some hairy workmanship sticking both back under those 6" ducts. Doesn't look like a 9' pour, so with the Dricore/finish taking up a couple inches, I personally would do anything to keep a high ceiling, but that's just me.

 

[dg6464]

I was going to suggest that after you have done all the walls and drops you could just strap the ceiling with 2x4 and lower the ceiling 1 1/2" and reclaim some of that where the gas pipe is.

Thank you very much for the suggestion and your other feedback - I'll check if a 2x4 allow enough depth for the drywall to get past the main gas pipe.

Otherwise - I might just get a gas fitter to move it closer to the furnace ducts when I have them put in a BBQ line .

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[dg6464]

Come on now, I spotted a Dewalt slider and laser tripod so sheetmetal and black iron is probably something on your skillset horizon. Sometimes it's just the right tools if you're already handy and perform good workmanship at other things you do (insert safety warning with gas here).

If a 6" feed is moved along the same size portion of trunk it shouldn't affect anything. Easier to drop the duct to put in the collars. Can't follow the exact path of the crossover joist spaces, but you get the idea.

The gas line I wouldn't want the transition to copper to be buried in a soffit anyway. I'd also extend the black iron all the way to the wall or move it into the furnace room for access.

The two ceiling straps looked like 2x4s, the center one I didn't see any romex or anything its protecting. Don't know why but it looks like 2x3s as bridging too, with some hairy workmanship sticking both back under those 6" ducts. Doesn't look like a 9' pour, so with the Dricore/finish taking up a couple inches, I personally would do anything to keep a high ceiling, but that's just me.

I will give it a try definitely for the ducts, but leave the gas to someone certified (as I do with electrical as well).

Going to see if 2x4 strapping will be deep enough to get drywall over the gas line, but may just ask a gas tech to move it when I have a BBQ line installed.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

dg6464