[carpdad]

I'm in NJ. Sorry just a few minutes of searching, but all AFCI breakers have white pigtails. But is there such a thing as AFCI breaker without the pigtail and a service panel that uses it, and still serve a same function?
And it's just my thinking, but AFCI main breaker wouldn't make sense, since smaller breakers would be easier and cheaper to replace if needed?
Thank you.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Yes, there are some AFCIs that do not have a tail, but they still have a line neutral connection. A line neutral is required for an AFCI or GFCI breaker to function. Sq D and Cutler-Hammer both have snap-on neutral connections in some panels.
Why do you ask?

 

[rjniles]

As much as I read about AFCI false tripping I would not want an AFCI main breaker.

 

[carpdad]

Will be upgrading to 200 from old 100 amp. It looks like I need AFCI for every circuit in this single family residential. That's from just one google search, however. I will be taking out a permit and will ask the inspector.
I thought the service panel will be less crowded if the neutral pigtail can be deleted. I will check the SquareD site. Im trying to know about panel install and required parts before contracting. There are many good info about these things but I couldn't find info about AFCI and pigtails. Again, thanks.

 

[rjniles]

Upgrading the service should not require you to upgrade branch circuits to AFCI. Unless it is a local requirement.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Will be upgrading to 200 from old 100 amp. It looks like I need AFCI for every circuit in this single family residential. That's from just one google search, however. I will be taking out a permit and will ask the inspector.
I thought the service panel will be less crowded if the neutral pigtail can be deleted. I will check the SquareD site. Im trying to know about panel install and required parts before contracting. There are many good info about these things but I couldn't find info about AFCI and pigtails. Again, thanks.

Who told you you need AFCI for a service upgrade?

AFCIs are required for the branch circuit wiring. You are NOT changing the branch circuit wiring for a simple panel change.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I will say, you do have a point. We are going to the 2014 NEC soon and it's a JOKE as far as AFCIs are concerned (like for refers and DWs). I will be going mostly with the lock-on neutrals for new installs for the reason you mention.

 

[carpdad]

I'm doing enough addition so that the whole house needs a rewire. I think the whole house was renovated (r11 fiberglass and all lathe and plaster replaced with 1/2" drywall, for example) but renovated electric is 14 ga BX with later romex in some parts. Insulation of BX wires are still in good condition but the rules will not allow me to keep these circuits, I think. I will be asking the town but I am not hoping.:smile:

 

[carpdad]

Just checked SquareD brochure on QO CAFCI breakers and the load center (plug on neutral). It looks like nothing I saw before, esp the neutral bar, and it's making me little nervous. How long has it been used by the pros? It looks like the circuit neutral wire will be screwed to the breaker-so each breaker will have power and neutral going to it? It also looks like the ground wires will be crowded to the top of the panel.
SquareD Homeline also looks like all AFCI breakers will have to go on one side, to where the neutral bus is. Doesn't this make load distribution impossible?
Considering, it looks like pigtails would be more flexible and maybe more of future proof main panel for now. If so, wouldn't I want a main panel with more room?
Could you enlighten me on this point? As always, thanks to all ideas.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Just checked SquareD brochure on QO CAFCI breakers and the load center (plug on neutral). It looks like nothing I saw before, esp the neutral bar, and it's making me little nervous. How long has it been used by the pros? It looks like the circuit neutral wire will be screwed to the breaker-so each breaker will have power and neutral going to it? It also looks like the ground wires will be crowded to the top of the panel.
SquareD Homeline also looks like all AFCI breakers will have to go on one side, to where the neutral bus is. Doesn't this make load distribution impossible?
Considering, it looks like pigtails would be more flexible and maybe more of future proof main panel for now. If so, wouldn't I want a main panel with more room?
Could you enlighten me on this point? As always, thanks to all ideas.

In a residential panel "load distribution" is a meaningless thing. You would literally have to go out of your way to create an imbalanced load. Just put the breakers where they fit and where the wires reach.

The HOM panel IMO has a MUCH better neutral/ground arrangement than QO. With an HOM panel you certainly can put AFCI or GFCI plug-on neutral breakers on either side in any position.

If it were me, I'd go with a 40/80 200A main breaker HOM panel.

 

[carpdad]

HOM panel looks like the traditional panel with neutral bus and the ground bus on opposite sides. But that brings up one more question. Assuming here in NJ, most of the circuits will have to have afci breakers, won't I run out of room quick? 30 breakers panel will not fit 30 afci breakers, for example.
This makes me guess that I got the info wrong - that ALL circuits will have to be afci. For all I know, when I talked to the town, it will tell me just the bedrooms.
Sorry that Im not here with some concrete info. Thought it was established tried and true, but I'm finding contradictions. Is this one example of JOKE?:smile:
So far it feels like I know less now. Thanks speedy for staying with this thread.

 

[rjniles]

Circuits that require AFCI depend on what cycle of the NEC your locality uses. Even with that some localities have reduced the AFCI requirements. Go with what your local AHJ says.

 

[Jim Port]

Square D neutral bars and ground bars are not divided by sides. The ground bars screw to the enclosure over raised bumps.

 

[Oso954]

Circuits that require AFCI depend on what cycle of the NEC your locality uses. Even with that some localities have reduced the AFCI requirements. Go with what your local AHJ says.

Good advice, but as far as panel replacement, I would plan on enough slots to provide space for an AFCI or GFCI sized breaker for every circuit.

The requirements have been ratcheting up. Even if you have a current older code cycle or a local amendment reduction today, the requirements will go up in the future.

While changing the panel doesn't necessarily trigger AFCI protection on existing circuits, something as small as changing a receptacle does require you to provide AFCI protection for that receptacle, if it is in an area that requires AFCI by current code (2011 or 2014 NEC code cycles)

 

[Speedy Petey]

Square D neutral bars and ground bars are not divided by sides. The ground bars screw to the enclosure over raised bumps.

Right.

The new HOM Panels are nice where the neutral/ground bars run the full length, on both sides, along the breakers.

The new 40/80 panels are great.

 

[carpdad]

Thank you for all answers. I think I have enough to understand the bids now.
I think I was confused about the neutral and ground bars - that they must be separated. I think that is for the subpanels.
I finally thought of checking the youtube and the picture was worth it. The breakers do take both power and the neutral.
Based on this, I do think now the QO is the way to go. One youtube video talked about needing afci on most of the circuits except dedicated gfci outlets, so it looks more like I will have to go with that as well.

 

[rjniles]

Do not depend on a YouTube video, ask the AHJ.

 

[carpdad]

I usually double and triple check my info. One reason is for the short memory.:smile: