[Jamesonc]

1984 Montgomery Ward Chest Freezer. Model # FFT 8053

The freezer is running how it always has, it's simply not cooling at all. Coils do not need cleaned because they are within the walls of the freezer. I replaced start relay, I bypassed thermostat temporarily. Determined it has nothing to do with thermostat and start relay. The external temp of the compressor reads 160F. Is that too hot?

Is this a case of leaked R12? If so, what is the liquid sound I hear when the compressor is running?

If this is a refrigerant issue, can someone tell me to what I need to purchase to seal and recharge?

 

[supers05]

You'll have a real hard time finding r12 these days. It's simply not worth fixing those. It's only worth it for the educational value alone. The leak is likely in the evap, which probably encircles the chest, which isn't likely easy to fix either.

160F is indeed way to hot. Does it sound like its running? Or do you just hear a angry buzzing hum.

My professional opinion is to buy a new freezer.

Cheers!

 

[Jamesonc]

https://www.amazon.com/RED-TEK-Refr..._1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474408916&sr=8-1&keywords=r12

I would have to say it sounds as it always has. Thanks for your input. I will take your advice.

 

[BayouRunner]

I convert some of the old built in subzero refrigerators over to a new refrigerant. And it works fine. I think it's 409a but I could be wrong. As I have not bought it in a year or so. But it's just not feasible for a chest freezer, but it can be done

 

[supers05]

https://www.amazon.com/RED-TEK-Refr..._1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474408916&sr=8-1&keywords=r12

I would have to say it sounds as it always has. Thanks for your input. I will take your advice.

There's freezers on there for less then double that price.... Depending on size of course.

If you want to give that a try, of course it's up to you. You won't do much more harm to the freezer. However, it is flammable, with an ignition temp low enough for even a static spark to ignite it. Lower flammability limit is 1.9%... So it doesn't take much.

That fitting is for a car though, and not the freezer. The freezer may not even have a service port on it anyways.

Cheers!

 

[roughneck]

R414B and R409A can be used as an R12 replacement. I was always a bit partial to R414B as it ran a little cooler then 409.

 

[supers05]

R414B and R409A can be used as an R12 replacement. I was always a bit partial to R414B as it ran a little cooler then 409.

What's the price for that stuff? I don't do to much low /medium temp stuff, so don't use those registrants often. I do know that the r22 replacements are expensive.

Cheers!

 

[roughneck]

Haven't bought any in quite some time, I've shifted away from heavy refrigeration work. Plus there's not a ton of R12 equipment left operating.

 

[bfletcher7]

Did I correctly read in the refrigeration manual that with R-409A capacity may be reduced at evap temps below 0F, and also that an oil retrofit should be considered below that?

 

[roughneck]

Yes, that is correct.
In fact, the only time I really used R409 was for medium temperature applications.
There are other options as well, such as MP39, but I don't really have much experience with them.

 

[BayouRunner]

I want to say I paid about $500 last year for a drum of 409a. Going by memory which is not what it used to be lol

 

[Jamesonc]

I like how one topic opens the door for more. Unrelated to the chest freezer, is $55.00 for a pound of R22 about right?

 

[roughneck]

That's cheap. Many companies are charging well over $100/lb. not that I agree with that, but R22 jumped in price again this summer. And will likely continue to do so until R22 equipment becomes obsolete just like what happened to R12.
Back in the early 2000s, I recall United refrigeration selling bottles of R12 for $1,300 for 30 lb bottles.

 

[user_12345a]

409a is a blend with r22 in it. You can't get it without a license and is being phased out.

You wouldn't need a big 30lb cylinder, your freezer probably takes under a pound.

Keep in mind though that the problem may not be a leak. The compressor could be failing. Gauges on the system would be needed to tell if it's pumping efficiently.

I wouldn't touch r12a or anything like it. 12a is a hydrocarbon refrigerant, it's similar to propane or butane.

 

[user_12345a]

That's cheap. Many companies are charging well over $100/lb. not that I agree with that, but R22 jumped in price again this summer. And will likely continue to do so until R22 equipment becomes obsolete just like what happened to R12.
Back in the early 2000s, I recall United refrigeration selling bottles of R12 for $1,300 for 30 lb bottles.

There are and probably will be more drop in replacements. Maybe with some capacity loss.

407c as i'm sure you may know can be put in r22 systems with no capacity loss according to the literature and not experience, the issue is having to replace the mineral oil with peo. not practical on hermetic compressors.

There are tons of r22 systems out there. If it came to scrapping and replacing repairable systems the environmental impact of doing that would be a lot greater than just keeping the r22 units in operation.

Talk about paving the road to hell with bad intentions.

 

[supers05]

There are and probably will be more drop in replacements. Maybe with some capacity loss.

407c as i'm sure you may know can be put in r22 systems with no capacity loss according to the literature and not experience, the issue is having to replace the mineral oil with peo. not practical on hermetic compressors.

There are tons of r22 systems out there. If it came to scrapping and replacing repairable systems the environmental impact of doing that would be a lot greater than just keeping the r22 units in operation.

Talk about paving the road to hell with bad intentions.

You mean scraping old systems, systems that likely have worn valves or scroll orbitals, bearings that have seen better days, coils that have had a dozen+ years of environmental beating? Remember, you haven't been able to manufacture r22 wet systems for quite some time time. Dry units are getting harder to find now. (very grey area paperwork on some of it) For package units, their heat exchangers are likely just as old, and have or will fail sooner rather then later. After that, you end up with higher efficiency units, several seer levels out of the box, before factoring in wear and tear loses on the older units.

Essentially, we don't replace whole units unless it makes more financial sense for the customer. Thanks to various laws, we go a bit greener, each iteration. That goes for everything, from packaged units, split types, temp application, chiller, boilers, etc. More expensive? Yes. But not prohibitly. Refrigerant recovered, and reused or destroyed as required. Metals separated and recycled. The oil is a bit more tricky, but it's usually dealt with at the scrap yard. Better for the environment, since recycling is better then mining, and more efficient units use less finite resources, to get the same result.

PS. Refrigerators and freezers are sized nearly perfectly for their designed cabinet. They have very little room for capacity changes, and seldom can't tolerate a loss more then a few percent. So drop-ins that have lower capacity may not work. Large built up systems are a different beast.

Cheers!

 

[user_12345a]

Takes a lot of energy, very destructive to mine materials and manufacturer new equipment.

Sad and wasteful to scrap equipment that isn't that old, like produced after 2000. (especially resi a/c units that only run 10 to 40 days each summer here in ontario)

My hope is that more good r22 replacements will come along.

To be honest, I think moving towards 410a with different metering devices, higher pressures was actually a mistake. Likely had more to do with patents and lobbying than anything else. They should have gone to 407c instead with it's very similar capacity and characteristics, minus the incompatibility with mineral oil and temperature glide.

-----
As for small fridges, I know there are good drop in replacements for r12 with minimal capacity loss.

With a new fridge you get lower energy consumption but also a shorter service life. The new appliances are built cheap with almost paper thin metal used to make the coils, crappy electronics, mexician/korean/chinese compressors.

At the end of the day it's up to the equipment owner to decide what makes sense. The decision shouldn't be determined by refrigerant phase out schedules, as much as i'm for the phase outs.

 

[roughneck]

The really sad part is the move to R410 is just temporary, we will move away from that in a sooner amount of time then we saw with R22. I don't know what's next for a standard air conditioning refrigerant, but nobody I've spoken with in the industry thinks that R410 will be a long term option.

 

[bfletcher7]

is $55.00 for a pound of R22 about right?

Are you inquiring about R12, or R22?

 

[supers05]

.....

Dry r22 units are still available, along with replacement compressors. If you really wanted to, you could stay with r22, it's just getting more expensive. (dry r22/407 units are more expensive then wet 410a units. The compressors are more expensive now. The refrigerant is being recycled and reused.

To be honest, I'm glad that there's one less health risk for me. CFCs have known long term health effects.

CO2 is already getting popular in other countries. It'll probably be the next big thing. Most supermarkets chains north of the super-critical line have already started switching. (mostly only new construction) You can already buy CO2 residential refrigerators /freezers/ HP hot water heaters in places like Japan and China.

Cheers!