[fulmar2]

Hi guys -
I'm planning the lighting in my new addition. It is a 800sf addition, attached to the main house. Power is coming from a 60A subpanel. I was wondering if anyone could OK or advise of changes to this wiring diagram I have shown. I'm not aware of any conventions for wiring diagrams, and I kind of made this up. Thanks in advance for any help!


The image link above opens up a larger image of the same diagram.

 

[TarheelTerp]

I was wondering if anyone could...

Nope. Not gonna even try.
There's no need for you to learn proper IEEE standards either.

Keep it simple:
Start with a schedule of all receptacles, light fixtures and appliances that you intend to include. Show all those which have a dedicated circuit (eg 240V 30A Dryer) first. Then the 15A or 20A receptacle circuits. Then the 15A lighting circuits.

Mark each home run from the panel to first device...
then (with a soft loop) how that line gets extended.
There won't be that many.

 

[gregzoll]

Hi guys -
I'm planning the lighting in my new addition. It is a 800sf addition, attached to the main house. Power is coming from a 60A subpanel. I was wondering if anyone could OK or advise of changes to this wiring diagram I have shown. I'm not aware of any conventions for wiring diagrams, and I kind of made this up. Thanks in advance for any help!


The image link above opens up a larger image of the same diagram.

What in the Sam world is this? Is it some type of Lumosity game?

 

[joecaption]

I looked and looked and still can not see Pac Man in the picture. What's the trick?

 

[kbsparky]

What is the combined wattage of all your fixtures?

 

[Stubbie]

What is the combined wattage of all your fixtures?

Yeah he has a lot on one circuit so I'm assuming 20 amps. He has twenty fixtures, looks like 16 light fixtures, 4 fans, 2 smoke detectors. Nicely done diagram by the way.

 

[fulmar2]

TarheelTerp - I actually already had a wiring diagram like yours from the Architect (see link below):



I made my own diagram so I could be sure I was understanding things correctly. I only did the lighting circuit because the outlets seem relatively easy to figure out. One challenge was determining when to pull 3 conductor wire, and when to pull 2 conductor wire; I hope I got that right. I tried to make up my boxes as simply as possible, and I got the 22cubic inch boxes so I think I'm safe on box fill.

kbsparky - the combined wattage of all the fixtures is 624W. I plan to use LED lighting and already have the exact ratings on the bathroom and laundry fans. Here is my load table.

Stubbie - Actually, I was planning on running 14ga wire and making this a 15A circuit. I calculated that with my lighting, I'm well under the amperage even with the 80% derating. Thank you for your comment, as it really made me feel a lot better after the Lumosity / Pac Man comments.

All - I've been really close to hiring an electrician to pull the wires. The expense is not to great. I haven't hired one because I want to have the satisfaction of doing it myself. It's not about the $$. Thank you to those who have endeavored to be helpful, and maintained the spirit of DIYchatroom.

 

[TarheelTerp]

I made my own diagram so I could be sure I was understanding things correctly. I only did the lighting circuit because the outlets seem relatively easy to figure out.

One challenge was determining when to pull 3 conductor wire,
and when to pull 2 conductor wire.

Typically... you'll use 2wire from the panel to the first switch point...
and then "Daisy-chaining" from that switch to the next (and so forth).

You'll also use 2wire from these switches to the several light fixtures they control.

The 3 way switches are where you'll use 3wire and are done similarly...
2wire feed in --> 3way Sw <--3wire between--> 3way Sw --> 2wire to light

I've been really close to hiring an electrician to pull the wires. The expense is not to great. I haven't hired one because I want to have the satisfaction of doing it myself. It's not about the $$.

Good for you.

 

[frenchelectrican]

My comments will be in bleu.

TarheelTerp - I actually already had a wiring diagram like yours from the Architect (see link below):



I made my own diagram so I could be sure I was understanding things correctly. I only did the lighting circuit because the outlets seem relatively easy to figure out. One challenge was determining when to pull 3 conductor wire, and when to pull 2 conductor wire; I hope I got that right. I tried to make up my boxes as simply as possible, and I got the 22cubic inch boxes so I think I'm safe on box fill.

Not bad drawing you make there.

The other thing with three way switches you may want to reroute the three conductor cable from switch box to switch box the key reason why is with the 2011 NEC code do mention that you will need netural conductor at each switch location for a good reason why due some of the motion sensor or the timer will required neutral to get it function properly.

kbsparky - the combined wattage of all the fixtures is 624W. I plan to use LED lighting and already have the exact ratings on the bathroom and laundry fans.

I don't go by the combine wattage as you mention above I always sized the circuit by the max wattage of each luminarie ( it will be stamped on the luminaire itself ) it don't matter if recessed or surface luminaries even thru you will use the LED but some case in future someone may want to switch over to indentscent bulbs that can overload the circuit very easy.

So that one reason why I always double check the wattage of the lumiaire.

Bathroom / laundry room fan with lights most case the max wattage useally either 60 or 100 watts depending on what model it is.

Stubbie - Actually, I was planning on running 14ga wire and making this a 15A circuit. I calculated that with my lighting, I'm well under the amperage even with the 80% derating. Thank you for your comment, as it really made me feel a lot better after the Lumosity / Pac Man comments.

All - I've been really close to hiring an electrician to pull the wires. The expense is not to great. I haven't hired one because I want to have the satisfaction of doing it myself. It's not about the $$. Thank you to those who have endeavored to be helpful, and maintained the spirit of DIYchatroom.

If your state/ local area can allow the homeowner do it own wiring that fine but check with the permit office first to make sure.

But if you want to hire the electrician to do the wiring you can do that but the cost will varies a bit depending on what they will plan how they run the circuit(s)

Bon Chance with your project.

Merci,
Marc

 

[RAUL HIDALGO]

are you pulling permits, if so i highly doubt the inspector will let you use 14/2 i say this from my own personal experience, inspectors in my area wont let you use 14/2 not even for a single light just saying ,,,,good luck in your project.:thumbup:

 

[fulmar2]

Raul, yes this will be inspected; I have permits. We're allowed to do "owner builder." Also, there is some construction going in the park in my neighborhood. I check it out, and see 14ga wire all over the place. I think it's OK.

Also, thanks to French Electrician. That is a good point about the calculations; it pushes me over the limit if I consider the maximum capacity of the luminaries. I made a revised drawing that divides it into two circuits (splitting the load down the middle). Also, I took your suggestion about the routing of the hall 3-way switch. Now the only problem I'm aware of: I don't know how to do a 3-way switch in the middle of a circuit.

 

[Stubbie]

I find nothing wrong with your layout it is very well thought out. As Mark said you may want to be sure it is calculated correctly as you may need 2 branch circuits as shown in your second diagram..

FWIW ... the other guys weren't smart enough to figure out what to do to see the diagram ....... :wink:

 

[rjniles]

are you pulling permits, if so i highly doubt the inspector will let you use 14/2 i say this from my own personal experience, inspectors in my area wont let you use 14/2 not even for a single light just saying ,,,,good luck in your project.:thumbup:

For what possible reason could an inspector turn down the use of 14/2? As long as the circuit is protected by a 15 amp breaker and the load does not exceed the calculated wattage. Certainly nothing in the NEC.

 

[hammerlane]

I remember this game from my younger days.

 

[Ocelaris]

I'm just going to throw in my $.02 which should be based on the fact I am NOT an electrician, just a home owner who has worked as an electrician for a summer in college, and ran low voltage (Cat5/RG6/Security) wiring for a number of years in my previous job.

I may be reading this wrong, but it appears that you are mixing Outdoor lights (which require a GFI circuit breaker), smoke alarms which have to be on their own breaker, and the rest of the lights should all be on an AFCI breaker, so that's 3 circuits right there. If I'm wrong that this appears to be 1 big circuit, I apologize. You didn't state if you were short on breakers etc...

If it were my house, I would be using 12 gauge because you can put more on them and it's a nominal cost, albeit a bit more work to get everything tied in at the recepticales/switches.

I also believe in the "design for stupid" rule, meaning you won't live in this house for the next 50 years when the wiring needs to be redone, and you should try and make your design as basic/simple/fool proof for the long run. This entails over designing some aspects, and not tailoring it too specifically for your exact needs at the moment. You WILL modify this wiring, and the more home runs and isolated you can make it the better for long term changes. LEDs may be superceded, Electricity may bypass gas/oil for heating or cooling, any number of unknown technological improvements may change things.


Like FrenchElectrician mentioned, you should rate the lights not based on the current bulb, but the luminaire's designation. Assuming best case, your luminaire doesn't allow changing of the bulb, and it's rated for exactly your LED bulb's rating, that would make your plan ok. But realistically, you should assume that someday someone will change your fixtures out for different ones, and design for that purpose. I would assume 75w per can light, and/or fixture. If you want to go lower, 50watts, but I think it's extreme to base it on a 3-15watt LED assumption.

In my house, I'm using 12 gauge everywhere except for the smoke/carbon alarms, and I'm using 75w IC rated cans, so I can get roughly 25 fixtures on a 20 amp or 19 on a 15 amp. Because I'm using AFCI breakers and they're about $50 regardless of whether it's 15 or 20 amp, I just got 20 amp because I'm using 12 gauge wire.

I'm also over designing because I am a home owner, and reading all these horror stories about loose connections causing heat which burns down the house, I want a bit of comfort room, and 12 gauge I believe will help in that matter. If I'm under wattage based on a 50 year life span, I'm fairly certain that the next person isn't going to have any problems either. My point is say someone changes out all your LEDs for regular can lights, and then they're bumping up against your 15amp 1 breaker solution, then the wire is heating up and even though you may not have had a problem, now the circuits are stressed, and you could have a loose connection that heats up and starts a fire. I know this is a bit paranoid, but that's just my reasoning behind over designing the wiring and being double triple careful on any splice points etc...

 

[curiousB]

12AWG instead of 14AWG for a 15A branch circuit is not required. Nothing wrong with it but you aren't getting any special benefit. As you cite the risk is the connections. I don't see 12AWG being anymore wire nut friendly than 14AWG. If you meant 20A branch circuits then 12 is needed.

I think mixing lighting and outlets is a bad idea. If you separate these to different circuits you won't have the annoying scenario of plugging something into the wall and popping the circuit breaker only to have all the lights go off as well. Breakers are cheap enough if you have the space in your panel. If you don't have the space consider a sub panel adjacent to panel or maybe remote it to an unfinished utility room so you have a destination point for future changes to the electrical in the house.

 

[Missouri Bound]

How are you determining your loads....by the fixture or by what you intend to use in the fixture? It's very important to use the maximum fixture rating when doing your calculations, regardless of what lamp you intend to use.

 

[RAUL HIDALGO]

For what possible reason could an inspector turn down the use of 14/2? As long as the circuit is protected by a 15 amp breaker and the load does not exceed the calculated wattage. Certainly nothing in the NEC.

Precisely my point but states and countys don't always follow the nec and electricians end up to the city inspectors will......and this is very annoying

 

[NJMarine]

NEC does not require outside lights to be on a GFI circuit or smoke detectors on it own circuit. Fire code doesn not require smoke detectors on its own circuit. It is possable that there is a local amendment.

 

[Kyle_in_rure]

There also some local amendments that don't allow any 14 awg /15 amp circuits at all. Seems like a waste to me...:icon_rolleyes: