Not the end of the world. Aluminum is an excellent conductor. It had some problems working with *legacy* copper terminations made for copper wires only, and wrongly cross-rated for Al. However aluminum terminations cheerfully support both aluminum and copper. The lugs in your panel are aluminum, as are Polaris, Mac Block and Alumiconn lugs.Hello. I’m hoping for some expert advice.
We have found al/cu arc-faults in the panel box and in a bathroom receptacle. About 1/3 of our branch circuits are aluminum wire.
Oh, those aren't good. I love Ideal but the Web is thick with pictures of those things burning up.For now I have replaced the rec and a circuit breaker using spliced copper wire on the aluminum branch circuit hot and neutrals using the purple Ideal al/cu twist connectors.
Smuggle them? LOL. Certainly, don't buy any electrical gear online if you can avoid it. Electrical gear, as a rule, is low value and heavy, and a typical load of what I get at the electrical supply would cost more to ship than the actual sale price. As such, few people trade online, and those that do charge "gotcha" / "I don't wanna ship it" pricing. Certainly anything from Amazon will have the Prime tax on it (Amazon charges vendors a fortune to be in Amazon Marketplace and to warehouse their items with Amazon so it ships with Prime. This is reflected in the online price.)2. Where do you get ALUMICONN al/cu connectors in Canada? I want to permanently repair al/cu/device/switch connections and splices throughout the home. I think that I need ALUMICONN (2 port and 3 port) connectors but can't find them locally in Canada. Amazon wants $220 CDN for 25.
I don't know if Canada is lagging behind the US. But there should also be CO-ALR rated receptacles and switches which have *actually correct* terminations for aluminum wire (and copper too). I would think there would also be MAC Block connectors (which allow joining 1-4 aluminum wires to 1-4 copper wires),3. My understanding is that the ALUMICONN connectors (and COPALUM) are the only approved permanent solutions besides full rewiring. Is that correct?
Oh, absolutely! I would do that first. AFCI is excellent at catching many types of problems you have with older wiring. They're demanding it on new wiring, but older wiring is where it's needed the most.4. Should I / could I install ACFI breakers and/or rec's on the aluminum circuits to mitigate the risk until I can repair all the connections?
No need. The operative word here is CANADA. The two product lines diverged sharply. In the US, Federal Pacific got caught in a VW-diesel style scandal of rigging tests, and the whole outfit crashed and burned, until we are down to the redoubtable Connecticut Electric (Chinese) making the breakers. They are even worse than the originals. Meanwhile, in Canada, Federal PIONEER got folded into Schneider Electric (known for their SQUARE D brand of superb QO and dull-but-safe Homeline panel lines). Schneider took good care of the brand and as a result, it didn't have the problems the US lines had.5. We have a Schneider Electric Stab-loc panel 100 amp with about 25 branch circuits. Apparently stab-loc breakers are at risk of failure. How bad is this and do we need to replace the whole panel??
The gotcha is that in Canada, you are not allowed to use your main panel as a junction box, so you can't just extend the circuits into the second panel via the first. You must reroute the Romex to the subpanel.
1) older aluminum wiring can be quite safe when installed properly, with the proper wire connectors or devices. Issues arise when it isn't installed correctly. I have quite a few burnt up receptacles I've taken out from homes with aluminum wiring. All of those jobs, we kept the aluminum wiring and copper pigtailed all the devices with approved Marrettes.Hello. I’m hoping for some expert advice.
We have found al/cu arc-faults in the panel box and in a bathroom receptacle. About 1/3 of our branch circuits are aluminum wire.
For now I have replaced the rec and a circuit breaker using spliced copper wire on the aluminum branch circuit hot and neutrals using the purple Ideal al/cu twist connectors.
1. Now that we have found this, how urgent is it that we address and repair the aluminum circuits? We are on a tight budget.
2. Where do you get ALUMICONN al/cu connectors in Canada? I want to permanently repair al/cu/device/switch connections and splices throughout the home. I think that I need ALUMICONN (2 port and 3 port) connectors but can't find them locally in Canada. Amazon wants $220 CDN for 25.
3. My understanding is that the ALUMICONN connectors (and COPALUM) are the only approved permanent solutions besides full rewiring. Is that correct?
4. Should I / could I install ACFI breakers and/or rec's on the aluminum circuits to mitigate the risk until I can repair all the connections?
5. We have a Schneider Electric Stab-loc panel 100 amp with about 25 branch circuits. Apparently stab-loc breakers are at risk of failure. How bad is this and do we need to replace the whole panel??
Thank you.
I’m sure it was all installed correctly when it was done. That was almost 50 years ago for some of the circuits. We had a receptacle sparking in the bathroom about a year ago - the al wire arc-faulted at the screw terminal on the rec. It was enough to melt the marrettes and some of the insulation. I replaced the rec with GFCI - there wasn’t one beside the sink. I need to go back and pigtail the al/cu connections properly.1) older aluminum wiring can be quite safe when installed properly, with the proper wire connectors or devices. Issues arise when it isn't installed correctly. I have quite a few burnt up receptacles I've taken out from homes with aluminum wiring. All of those jobs, we kept the aluminum wiring and copper pigtailed all the devices with approved Marrettes.
This is very helpful information.I have never heard of those connectors before, so they certainly are not the only choice of approved connectors. Every single company i have worked for has used strictly Marrette 63 and 65 wirenuts. They are approved for copper-to-copper, copper-to-aluminum, and aluminum-to-aluminium connections
I’m in Niagara region. Any idea where I should go around here?I'd buy them from an electrical wholesaler
See images below for why I spliced the AL to CU before connecting to the CB. You can see the installer had applied anti-ox compound to the AL hot from the CB. Despite the rating, the fault was hot enough to melt the insulation. The AL wire fell right out of the CB as soon as I removed it from the bus.you could install arc fault breakers if you wish. The breakers and panel itself is dual rated for copper or aluminum, so there is no need to splice on copper in there, unless you need to extend the wiring.
Apparently the issue is the breakers can fail to trip up to 60% of the time under fault conditions. Of course, until there is a fault, it seems fine. They still sell these panels, so, again, there seems to be conflicting information as to what is safe and what is allowed.FPE panels do have a bad reputation, but I have yet to see one fail here in Canada... and I've worked in tons of them.
Yes, they know. They charge more. If they saw what I found I’m sure they would freak out.does your insurance company even know there's aluminum wiring on the premises...
Apparently not all AL wire is created equal. I understand that the CO-ALR receptacles are okay with newer AL wire, which is still available today. Legacy AL wire May be different.But there should also be CO-ALR rated receptacles and switches which have *actually correct* terminations for aluminum wire (and copper too).
Indeed. Yet they are approved for use, as are the Marette 65 and 63s.Oh, those aren't good. I love Ideal but the Web is thick with pictures of those things burning up.
My Canadian SEFP panel is apparently exactly the same as US versions. The CBs are very loose at the bus connection. Since the risk is a no-trip fault condition, it’s difficult to know if there is a problem until, well, there is a problem.No need. The operative word here is CANADA. The two product lines diverged sharply...in Canada, Federal PIONEER got folded into Schneider Electric (known for their SQUARE D brand of superb QO and dull-but-safe Homeline panel lines). Schneider took good care of the brand and as a result, it didn't have the problems the US lines had.
Now I have a question. If the intent is to install a second box and move all the circuits to that the "main panel" isn't a main panel anymore......correct?The gotcha is that in Canada, you are not allowed to use your main panel as a junction box, so you can't just extend the circuits into the second panel via the first. You must reroute the Romex to the subpanel.
BTW it’s not Romex, it’s 50 year old aluminum 12/2.You must reroute the Romex to the subpanel.
There IS another option. Someone may make a retro-fit bus for that panel.Ideally, I would have the whole panel replaced, but cost is a factor. Also it’s finished with drywall and studs around the panel and there is no room.
They did modernize aluminum wire after the ...troubles. It changed from the AA-1350 alloy (the standard transmission line alloy) to AA-8000 (specifically formulated for house wiring 15-30A small branch circuits). However, this went over like the Microsoft Zune... nobody wants to build a new-build aluminum wire house!Apparently not all AL wire is created equal. I understand that the CO-ALR receptacles are okay with newer AL wire, which is still available today. Legacy AL wire May be different.
That's always an issue.Also, there is the issue of the brittle metal and bending the AL in and out to inspect and repair the connection to begin with.
Yeah, InspectAPedia can be "a little bit paranoid" at times. I kinda get the impression it's one guy who is a ranter. It's SOP for Inspectapedia to speak very negatively of something, and then admit there's no real evidence to support that. Like the way they recorded "many" failures of AL-Cu receps, but "one" of a CO-ALR, and that was probably a problem of not using a torque screwdriver, and that's a problem for any fastener of any kind, including Alumiconns.Check this out:
https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Repair_COALR.php
Indeed. Yet they are approved for use, as are the Marette 65 and 63s.
Yeah again I wouldn't take insepectapedia as a single source. They hate everything.My Canadian SEFP panel is apparently exactly the same as US versions. The CBs are very loose at the bus connection. Since the risk is a no-trip fault condition, it’s difficult to know if there is a problem until, well, there is a problem.
CO/ALR devices are proven to fail by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. The CPSC considers them safe only for temporary, emergency repairs.Given the dubious performance of almost any pigtail splice, it really looks like those CO-ALR receps are the way to go.
Makes sense. That’s good news, thanks.As such, the CO-ALR receps have no market. The only reason they exist in the marketplace is for the older AA-1350 wires. And they are for *exactly* that.
Lol. Yeah, they do go on and on a bit.I'm pretty sure there's a page on Chex cereal somewhere in the site
Well, this is the information I had started with. So, it’s back to square one?Alumiconn and COPALUM crimp connectors are the only methods they have found to provide a reliable repair. Since COPALUM is beyond the capabilities of the DIY arena, that leaves just the Alumiconns as a solution.
The Alumiconn spec sheet says they are cUL listed, which means they are approved for use in Canada.I can’t find the ALUMICONN connectors here anywhere. I have no idea if they even meet local code here in Ontario. Kevin has never heard of them!
No wonder I am confused as to what to do here. Lol :wink2:
I have not read this report, but have linked to it so I can in the future, but lets be reminded that it is a USA report. Devices / products are different here in Canada and I would argue that AL devices are the better option then completing the splicing.CO/ALR devices are proven to fail by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. The CPSC considers them safe only for temporary, emergency repairs.
Alumiconn and COPALUM crimp connectors are the only methods they have found to provide a reliable repair. Since COPALUM is beyond the capabilities of the DIY arena, that leaves just the Alumiconns as a solution.
So what? They aren't the decider of that.CO/ALR devices are proven to fail by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. The CPSC considers them safe only for temporary, emergency repairs.
"have found"? FOUND!!?? *checks list* Nope, still, not an NRTL. Too many opinions in the field already!Alumiconn and COPALUM crimp connectors are the only methods they have found to provide a reliable repair. Since COPALUM is beyond the capabilities of the DIY arena, that leaves just the Alumiconns as a solution.