We are looking for an alternative to Drylok. There is a moisture problem in the basement and we recently had a Waterguard System installed. We are now working on waterproofing the walls but the problem we are facing is the previous owners finished only half of the basement, the other half they painted the cement blocks. The research that my wife and have done indicates that you cannot apply Drylok over paint as it will not adhere to the cement block, only adhere to the paint. The removal of the paint is an option but that is going to be another costly job not to mention the time it would take us to remove the paint. Are there good options out there that we can pursue instead of applying some type of Drylok?
Alternative to Drylok
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Hi warrrl and welcome to the forum.
There is a difference between their claims as a waterproofing material and stopping moisture. To quote "Breathable film – does not trap moisture in masonry" from:
http://www.drylok.com/formulas/drylok-extreme/
What they are saying is that moisture that soaks into the blocks will dry to the inside right through the Drylok. Where you might not see a puddle of water on the floor you will still have gallons of moisture entering as moisture vapor.
To back up, moisture problems are first addressed from the outside, landscaping, leaders from the gutters directed 10' or more away from the foundation, and if still needed, improved drainage and treatment to the exterior of that foundation. Once any moisture soaks into the foundation it is very difficult to stop it from the inside. In most cases home owners simply manage what enters with a dehumidifier.
What has been done on the outside and is the problem just the musty smell ot puddles of water?
Bud
There is a difference between their claims as a waterproofing material and stopping moisture. To quote "Breathable film – does not trap moisture in masonry" from:
http://www.drylok.com/formulas/drylok-extreme/
What they are saying is that moisture that soaks into the blocks will dry to the inside right through the Drylok. Where you might not see a puddle of water on the floor you will still have gallons of moisture entering as moisture vapor.
To back up, moisture problems are first addressed from the outside, landscaping, leaders from the gutters directed 10' or more away from the foundation, and if still needed, improved drainage and treatment to the exterior of that foundation. Once any moisture soaks into the foundation it is very difficult to stop it from the inside. In most cases home owners simply manage what enters with a dehumidifier.
What has been done on the outside and is the problem just the musty smell ot puddles of water?
Bud
Thanks for replying Bud,
What we have are not puddles of water but a considerable amount of moisture at the base of two walls. Enough moisture where it can be felt with the fingers. With that came the very musty odors. We are hoping that the Waterguard system will take care of that issue. What we want to do now is complete the interior framing but we feel that we need to apply something to the concrete walls before doing this. We have now found something called Everlast walls. We have never heard of this before and are hesitant to use this, we will do more research on this product. Our question is, can we simply put us some type of plastic moisture barrior before framing? Or do we still need to apply some type of Drylok or other product to the cement before framing. We are new to refinishing projects and need some direction before we invest more money and find that we messed up. This Waterguard system cost us dearly and was something that was not budgeted because we just didn't understand what was involved with finishing a damp basement.
What we have are not puddles of water but a considerable amount of moisture at the base of two walls. Enough moisture where it can be felt with the fingers. With that came the very musty odors. We are hoping that the Waterguard system will take care of that issue. What we want to do now is complete the interior framing but we feel that we need to apply something to the concrete walls before doing this. We have now found something called Everlast walls. We have never heard of this before and are hesitant to use this, we will do more research on this product. Our question is, can we simply put us some type of plastic moisture barrior before framing? Or do we still need to apply some type of Drylok or other product to the cement before framing. We are new to refinishing projects and need some direction before we invest more money and find that we messed up. This Waterguard system cost us dearly and was something that was not budgeted because we just didn't understand what was involved with finishing a damp basement.
The bad news for you is your basement was never built to be finished, that's yours and 50 million other homes, probably more. To have a dry basement requires several steps while the foundation is going into the ground. Without those you end up managing the moisture and/or water issues as you currently are doing. But that's water over the dam, so to speak.
The Everlast (my first review of it) looks like a patch for contractors to run in, cover up the mold and nasty stuff, and exit with everything LOOKING great. There are guidelines from informed sources that will provide better guidance, here's one.
http://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements?full_view=1
I don't see where you gave us your climate region. In cold climates the insulation becomes a part of your walls and combined with a moisture issue some rigid insulation against the foundation is a good approach.
Bud
The Everlast (my first review of it) looks like a patch for contractors to run in, cover up the mold and nasty stuff, and exit with everything LOOKING great. There are guidelines from informed sources that will provide better guidance, here's one.
http://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements?full_view=1
I don't see where you gave us your climate region. In cold climates the insulation becomes a part of your walls and combined with a moisture issue some rigid insulation against the foundation is a good approach.
Bud
If you are feeling moisture at the base of the walls, you need to fix the problem. And that is fixed from the outside. This is probably the reason the last owner wisely did not finish this part of the basement. If he did you would by now have a huge mold/mildew/rot problem. Finishing a basement that was not designed to be living space is often problematic. The exterior problem that is trapping water against the foundation maybe as simple as fixing the grading, removing gardens from around the permitter, and installing a system to carry the downspout water away from the foundation. Or it may involve excavation and waterproofing the exterior of the fountain and/or installing weeping drains around footings and draining to a sump pump. The prior owners of my house did the footing drains, sump pump and floated the basement floor. Rarely do I see actual water but during heavy rains and snow melt the sump pump is quite busy and I have to run a dehumidifier around the clock in non heating season. There is no way I would ever finish that basement. You can't waterproof the walls from the inside. Period.
Thanks again for your input guys. Bud on your question about our location. We live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, we are located just off from Lake Superior. I have to say that yours and Jim's remarks have us really confused. Bud you state that our basement was not built to be refinished and Jim you state that we should not refinish the basement, period. We are confused because this website has many forums on how to properly refinish a basement, even those that have a moisture problem that has to be addressed. There are so many homeowners refinishing their basements and the market is flooded with products to complete a refinishing job that we just can't agree with you two. We are encouraged by all of these forums that have positive comments and feel that all of these homeowners can't be mistaken. We do appreciate your time in responding but we will continue with our project and look forward to other responses that can assist us.
warrrl, I do understand your confusion at someone telling you your basement was never built to be finished into living space. Here's the abstract from the link above.
"Buildings used to be constructed over cellars. Cellars were dank, dark places where coal was stored. People never intended to live in cellars. Now we have things called basements that have pool tables, media centers and play rooms. Cellars were easy to construct – rubble, stone, bricks and sometimes block. If they got wet or were damp so what? Basements are different. They are not easy to construct if we intend to live in them. They need to be dry, comfortable and keep contaminants out. Basements are viewed by many as cheap space that can easily be incorporated into a home. Keeping basements dry, comfortable and contaminant free is proving to be anything but simple."
When most people think about a damp basement they think about "water". In reality, "moisture vapor" is the really big problem. It goes right through concrete and even right through the "Drylok" (by design) the topic of your post. Now, even though moisture vapor is a slower mode of transport, it is persistent and if not managed it will try to equalize the inside of your basement to become equally as wet as the soil outside. Thus I like the advice not using a vapor barrier and running a dehumidifier to manage what moisture passes through.
It is tempting to disregard internet advice, especially when you don't want to follow it, but the people who wrote that article, and many more aren't idiots and have thousands of examples to back up their advice. They also have no financial interest in making those statements where the people who roll the dice and sell and remodel problem basements do.
If I have raised your concern, then I have done my job. To your benefit, many basements are remodeled without following the current best advice and they do just fine. But the ones who have problems, have major problems. Mold is a nasty 4 letter word.
Do read that article and follow some of the references, they do provide good advice.
Best,
Bud
"Buildings used to be constructed over cellars. Cellars were dank, dark places where coal was stored. People never intended to live in cellars. Now we have things called basements that have pool tables, media centers and play rooms. Cellars were easy to construct – rubble, stone, bricks and sometimes block. If they got wet or were damp so what? Basements are different. They are not easy to construct if we intend to live in them. They need to be dry, comfortable and keep contaminants out. Basements are viewed by many as cheap space that can easily be incorporated into a home. Keeping basements dry, comfortable and contaminant free is proving to be anything but simple."
When most people think about a damp basement they think about "water". In reality, "moisture vapor" is the really big problem. It goes right through concrete and even right through the "Drylok" (by design) the topic of your post. Now, even though moisture vapor is a slower mode of transport, it is persistent and if not managed it will try to equalize the inside of your basement to become equally as wet as the soil outside. Thus I like the advice not using a vapor barrier and running a dehumidifier to manage what moisture passes through.
It is tempting to disregard internet advice, especially when you don't want to follow it, but the people who wrote that article, and many more aren't idiots and have thousands of examples to back up their advice. They also have no financial interest in making those statements where the people who roll the dice and sell and remodel problem basements do.
If I have raised your concern, then I have done my job. To your benefit, many basements are remodeled without following the current best advice and they do just fine. But the ones who have problems, have major problems. Mold is a nasty 4 letter word.
Do read that article and follow some of the references, they do provide good advice.
Best,
Bud
To clear up the confusion, I basically said I would not bother finishing implying that I would need to correct the water issue first and make the basement bone dry. Of course that can be done . And people do do it. In my house I would have to complete regard the back yard, excavate around the entire foundation which would include ripping up my 400 sqft deck, water proof outside of the foundation walls, check the state of the footing drains , build up the hatch way entrance and perhaps but a drain in it, regrade the front yard and install a drain system for the gutters downspouts . The lot slopes in the backyard toward the rear of the house and the front and side yards at flat. So I have probably spent 70 to grand I haven't even started the refinishing project . I don't have the time to build out a basement , so I am probably looking at 30 to 50 G . For the total cost of the project I would sell the house and buy a larger house with a nice ground level rec room, additional bedroom or what ever I was planning to do with the finished basement
Joined
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11,730 Posts
Welcome to the forums!
Good you are looking for a better solution than Drylock, maybe a spray-on flexible, covering; http://neutocrete.com/what-is-drylock-and-does-it-work/
Or a rigid one; http://www.buildingfoundation.umn.edu/WetWallProposal/WetWallProp.htm
Or Delta Wall, or another interior drainage membrane. As you have the most expensive part installed already, just add some rigid foam board (XPS) to meet Energy Code requirements of R-15, footnote "c"; http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Michigan
As per Figure 15; download at bottom right corner; http://buildingscience.com/documents/bareports/ba-0202-basement-insulation-systems/view
We can direct/help you on this...
Gary
Good you are looking for a better solution than Drylock, maybe a spray-on flexible, covering; http://neutocrete.com/what-is-drylock-and-does-it-work/
Or a rigid one; http://www.buildingfoundation.umn.edu/WetWallProposal/WetWallProp.htm
Or Delta Wall, or another interior drainage membrane. As you have the most expensive part installed already, just add some rigid foam board (XPS) to meet Energy Code requirements of R-15, footnote "c"; http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Michigan
As per Figure 15; download at bottom right corner; http://buildingscience.com/documents/bareports/ba-0202-basement-insulation-systems/view
We can direct/help you on this...
Gary
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