[tjminneed]

I'm working on a house that was built in 1954. It has ground wires on the wiring but they are only used to ground the steel outlet boxes. I've been replacing the old 2 wire outlets with 3 wire but I've hit a snag. When I got the last box in the first bedroom I found that the ground wire supplying the power does not lead back to a ground. I don't know if it's disconnected somewhere or possibly broken inside a wall. I'm spending too much time on it, that I know. I bought some bare 14 gauge copper wire at the home center for an unrelated project and I'm starting to wonder if I should just give up on solving this one and run a new ground to the outlet box. I could do this without butchering the plaster. But when I went into the basement I saw that I would be coming out in an air return channel. I know that you normally need special wire in an air return but is it ok when it's a bare ground wire that won't give off toxic fumes in a fire? (Or possibly I misunderstood why special wire is required.)

The plaster is perfect and I'd really like to not tear it out to solve this.

 

[surferdude2]

What you are suggesting is good in theory but unfortunately it isn't allowed by code.

In the feed cable to the first outlet box, are you saying it's fed by a cable that has no ground conductor at all?

If that be true, you have three options:

1. Run a new feed with proper cable (to the first box or any other box that might be easier to access)

2. Install a GFI receptacle at that first box and feed all the other receptacles from the load side of it. You will need to have a tag at each receptacle stating that it is an ungrounded receptacle.

3. Put the old receptacles back and abandon the project.

If it were me, I'd probably lean heavily to the #3 option. :wink2:

 

[Kevin_Essiambre]

3. Put the old receptacles back and abandon the project.

If it were me, I'd probably lean heavily to the #3 option. :wink2:

I'm just gonna leave this here

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[tjminneed]

What you are suggesting is good in theory but unfortunately it isn't allowed by code.

In the feed cable to the first outlet box, are you saying it's fed by a cable that has no ground conductor at all?

If that be true, you have three options:

1. Run a new feed with proper cable (to the first box or any other box that might be easier to access)

2. Install a GFI receptacle at that first box and feed all the other receptacles from the load side of it. You will need to have a tag at each receptacle stating that it is an ungrounded receptacle.

3. Put the old receptacles back and abandon the project.

If it were me, I'd probably lean heavily to the #3 option. :wink2:

I poked around some and I have 2 outlet boxes with the same issue. They are on opposite sides of a wall in different bedrooms. There is a ground wire, it's connected to the outlet boxes, but it doesn't lead back to a ground. Luckily they are connected to each other and the second one is NOT over an air return. I have a big roll of 14 gauge bare copper wire and I will fish it through this mess and use that to ground the boxes and outlets. So help me, I never saw this before.

I'm aware of the GFCI option. I'm not saying it can't be done but these tiny 1954 era outlet boxes make it very tough to install GFCI. After doing the kitchen (had grounds) I am avoiding that route.

I didn't really explain about the plaster. I do have my limits before I will start knocking holes in the wall. But my late father built this house and he was a fanatic about the plaster. It's in great shape, there's even a plaster crown mold, and I'm just trying to respect his wishes. I am aware that I will not be compensated for the effort when I sell. It's just an emotional thing.

 

[Jim Port]

The NEC allows a separate ground wire to be run. It does not even need to be in the same cable. You can run one from the panel or a nearby circuit.

 

[Oso954]

I'm aware of the GFCI option. I'm not saying it can't be done but these tiny 1954 era outlet boxes make it very tough to install GFCI.

So change the boxes.
I use either the arlington f101 or Madison smart box.
Example.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Madison-Electric-Products-Smart-Box-1-Gang-Adjustable-Depth-Device-Box-MSB1G/203340257
It’s easy to loosen the wires, cut the nails holding the existing box, pull it out, enlarge the hole, feed the wires into the box, slide the box in, and fasten it to the studs.

It may be slow on the first one or two you do, but it becomes quick and simple. Then the GFCI (or some of today’s switches) fit in the box.

 

[surferdude2]

Well, I hate to again be the wet blanket here but it still won't be up to code. It may well be better and safer but not inspected and approved. You are not allowed to run the required circuit wires from multiple paths... that applies to the ground as well as the line conductors.

It sounds like a beautiful old house and I agree that you should not demo the walls to fix this issue. Since you have grounded circuits in the kitchen and if not in the bathroom, you can install GFI ones, you could leave the rest as is. The protection that a grounded receptacle provides is of much lesser value in the areas where no available ground contact such as water pipes or bare concrete floor or wet surfaces are present. Most living rooms and bedrooms are pretty safe from ground fault dangers. Code still permits the old 2-pole receptacles if they are existing. They still sell replacements for them.

But if you install new grounding receptacles, you are technically required to do what I outlined earlier. Running a alternate path ground to them isn't permitted even though it may be safer. Sorry.

 

[tjminneed]

Well, I hate to again be the wet blanket here but it still won't be up to code. It may well be better and safer but not inspected and approved. You are not allowed to run the required circuit wires from multiple paths... that applies to the ground as well as the line conductors.

It sounds like a beautiful old house and I agree that you should not demo the walls to fix this issue. Since you have grounded circuits in the kitchen and if not in the bathroom, you can install GFI ones, you could leave the rest as is. The protection that a grounded receptacle provides is of much lesser value in the areas where no available ground contact such as water pipes or bare concrete floor or wet surfaces are present. Most living rooms and bedrooms are pretty safe from ground fault dangers. Code still permits the old 2-pole receptacles if they are existing. They still sell replacements for them.

But if you install new grounding receptacles, you are technically required to do what I outlined earlier. Running a alternate path ground to them isn't permitted even though it may be safer. Sorry.

No disrespect intended, but didn't they lighten up on the grounding rules in 2014?

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/36350/how-do-i-add-grounding-to-my-old-electrical-wiring

 

[surferdude2]

The NEC allows a separate ground wire to be run. It does not even need to be in the same cable. You can run one from the panel or a nearby circuit.

That's a case where the code giveth and code taketh away. Article 300 can burn you.

 

[surferdude2]

No disrespect intended, but didn't they lighten up on the grounding rules in 2014?

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/36350/how-do-i-add-grounding-to-my-old-electrical-wiring

Hey that's news to me and good news for the OP! Thanks for the reference site link to back it up!

I'm evidently out of date on my code... retired in 2004 and never did much residential anyway so not the best source for house wiring. I'm glad to find out that they got more practical and recognized it was better than nothing to run a separate ground as opposed to no ground at all.

Thanks again, SD