[hundel]

I'm in Boston. Renovating a 3300 sf 1890s 3 story colonial style with gas range and dryer for my wife, soon-to-be-born daughter and frequent guests. Cool fact: gas street lights were restored in our cul-de-sac. Anyway ...

My electrician included 100 amp to 200 amp upgrades through the breaker box as an optional line item. I chose to wait.

At rough inspection today, learned that my inspector wants AFCI breakers at the box on every circuit that was touched. Electrician says the old box isn't capable of this.

So the way forward seems naturally to be get a new box and do the 200 amp upgrades now. But just wanted to ask the expert community:

a) is it really impossible to fit AFCI breakers into an older box like this?
b) should the contractor have anticipated this was going to happen and better prepared me for the non-optional AFCI/service upgrade scenario?
c) what the hell did we just get ourselves into with this big old house thing? (just kidding)

Great forums and thanks in advance!

 

[Jim Port]

Whether the afci breaker will fit into the panel depends on the age and brand of the panel.

It should have been a consideration that afci protection would be needed, especially for new circuits.

 

[theJcK]

And if use of multi-wires.. lots of cost beyond breakers and box. Possibly rewiring half or more of the home.

 

[Jim Port]

And if use of multi-wires.. lots of cost beyond breakers and box. Possibly rewiring half or more of the home.

Why do you think that rewiring would be needed. That is way beyond the scope of the NEC .

 

[hundel]

Thanks for the quick replies. Sounds like we have a thorough inspector which is not a bad thing. Wish the contractor would have prepared me for this but I think it'll be all good in the end. Love the house, anticipated over-runs and have had fewer surprises than we expected. This one seems like it's for our own good. At any rate, neither inspector nor contractor seem to think there'll be rewiring but I guess we'll have to wait until the next inspection to know for sure. Here are some breaker box photos if it is any interest to anyone.

 

[dmxtothemax]

Here are some breaker box photos if it is any interest to anyone.

Where ?

:glasses:

 

[Msradell]

Why do you think that rewiring would be needed. That is way beyond the scope of the NEC .

He said that a lot of rewiring may be necessary if the house had MWBCs. Something that I highly doubt in an older home like his obviously is.

 

[hundel]

Was having trouble with the image URLs. Here you go:

 

[rjniles]

The 2 tandem breakers with the blue handles are not GE breakers and that panel is not rated for tandem breakers. I see at least 2 neutral under a single screw, which is a violation. All the yellow sheath in the box is an indication the work was not done by an electrician.

I agree, panel should be replaced.

 

[carpdad]

If the existing wires don't meet the new rules, for example, 14 ga in livingroom and bedroom outlets, don't they HAVE to be replaced when certain amount of remodel work is done? Although in this case it doesn't look like addition, I thought that if percentage addition of square footage or nature of remodel extensive enough, it was in the rules that entire wiring must be upgraded? For example, my plan adds 1200 square feet to 1200 square feet house. I will be confirming this with the town, but I am sure I read that I will be needing to rewire my 14 ga wires with 12.

Also it is my experience that talking too much to the house owners about the work -requrements, plans, progress, etc - doesn't help. If your contractor did not talk to you about all possible outcome of your remodel, it really isn't their fault. After the fact, you may wish you knew some of what may happen, but usually it happens like this.

 

[hundel]

I don't know, but here's the extent of the work: we are remodeling a kitchen and 2 bathrooms. Nothing moved, or enlarged other than removing a wall between a linen closet and a bathroom. So no, it's not required. The question was really whether the electrician should have included it in the estimate if it was so obvious it was going to be required.

 

[Oso954]

If the existing wires don't meet the new rules, for example, 14 ga in livingroom and bedroom outlets, don't they HAVE to be replaced when certain amount of remodel work is done?

What "new rules" do you believe make 14awg (or 15 amp circuits) not OK for living room and bedroom receptacles ?

 

[hundel]

All the yellow sheath in the box is an indication the work was not done by an electrician.

Those brand new yellow sheathed wires sure seem to lead to 15 amp and 20 amp loads. That's a proble in Boston? Do others really agree with rjniles on this assertion? If so, why didn't the electrician or inspector mention anything about that?

 

[Oso954]

I would agree that it looks DIY or Handyman. But that's not necessarily a problem.

Your base problem is that you need a new panel. The electrician will clean up the sheaths as part of the panel replacement, so why would he or the inspector bother saying anything about a minor detail ?

 

[Jim Port]

The yellow sheath looks like labels for the circuits that was slipped back over the wires.

 

[herdfan]

All the yellow sheath in the box is an indication the work was not done by an electrician.

Really? What makes you sure? Don't want to hijack the thread, but sometimes too many of you think mistakes/code violations are only committed by non-electricians.

 

[rjniles]

Really? What makes you sure? Don't want to hijack the thread, but sometimes too many of you think mistakes/code violations are only committed by non-electricians.

All I can go by is what I have seen in practice. I have never seen an electrician leave sheath in a panel like that.

 

[herdfan]

Here is a pic of my neighbor's new pool. This panel was installed by not only a licensed electrician, but one who is designated as a Master Electrician.

I have kept my mouth shut as they are excited for the pool, but I would never hire him.

Beside the panel will be the hot tub disconnect and all this will have a fence around it. So it will be within the 50', but not visible. Also, the heater was in first.