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smitty
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22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Main is a Square D

Circuit= garage door opener (motor & 2 led screw in light bulbs) & outside outlets & 2 led 4' shop lights.

I took the gfci outlet out (Cooper) & replaced it with a duplex outlet. Not having a problem, it just was behind a cabinet and a PITA to reset when it tripped. Circuit breaker did not trip under load after the swap.

Took the regular circuit breaker out of the main panel & replaced it with a combination arc fault circuit interrupter ( 20 A QO120cafic).

Now when I plug in the door opener (with or without the bulbs) and/or the shop lights the new combination arc fault in the main panel trips. Plugging either into another circuit (golf cart gfci outlet) will not trip the outlet cfci.

So what's causing the breaker to trip?
Breaker won't trip w/o load.

What am I missing?
Thoughts, please.

Thanks
 

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flipping slumlord
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5,116 Posts
I took the gfci outlet out (Cooper) & replaced it with a duplex outlet.
...it just was behind a cabinet and a PITA to reset
Circuit= garage door opener & outside outlets & 2 led 4' shop lights.
a) what other R's inside the garage are ALSO on the circuit?
b) Have you identified the line vs load wires?

Took the regular circuit breaker out of the main panel &...
What am I missing?
1) put that regular breaker back in
2) find the line side of the circuit wiring
3) determine a better place to mount the GFI receptacle
(downstream of the ceiling fixtures)
 

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Very Stable Genius
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4,480 Posts
Start by identifying the type of fault causing the trip. Breaker will
have instructions (or you can find them on the internet) to find
out if trip was due to overcurrent, gnd fault, or arc fault. Likely a
matter of knowing how to instigate and read LED output(s) on
breaker.
My guess is it'll say gnd fault.........we'll see........


EDIT: BTW, if it were me I'd put the regular breaker back in and
forget it. YMMV
 

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smitty
Joined
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22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
a) what other R's inside the garage are ALSO on the circuit?
nothing.
b) Have you identified the line vs load wires?

In the GFI?? Shouldn't matter (in my mind). Replaced the GFI with a standard outlet

1) put that regular breaker back in.
Then there is no protection to the outside outlets

2) find the line side of the circuit wiring
In the main? only 2 wires & ground. Took out breaker, disconnected (unscrewed) black wire, put in into only available screw & put the pigtail to the bus bar (PLEASE SEE BELOW)

3) determine a better place to mount the GFI receptacle
(downstream of the ceiling fixtures)
IIRC the circuit went from main, to the opener, to the wall outlet, to outside duplexes.



FROM ABOVE:You got me thinking about the AFIC. I went out & pulled it and looked at it. There are 2 screws in a afic. I didn't move the white (neutral) from the bus bar and put in in the breaker.

THANK YOU FOR THE HEADS UP!!!

I left everything above for anyone in the future who has the same problem

Again THANK YOU!!
 

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smitty
Joined
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22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Start by identifying the type of fault causing the trip. Breaker will
have instructions (or you can find them on the internet) to find
out if trip was due to overcurrent, gnd fault, or arc fault. Likely a
matter of knowing how to instigate and read LED output(s) on
breaker.
My guess is it'll say gnd fault.........we'll see........


EDIT: BTW, if it were me I'd put the regular breaker back in and
forget it. YMMV
Will have to read the paper that came with the breaker.---Never thought of it.

Really don't want to leave the outside unprotected. If it was just me in the house, sure. But have the Mrs. and she causes enough grief w/o being inadvertently being shocked.
 

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Disrespectful to dirt
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1,075 Posts
Really don't want to leave the outside unprotected. If it was just me in the house, sure. But have the Mrs. and she causes enough grief w/o being inadvertently being shocked.
The outside is still unprotected. While a SquareD AFCI breaker provides the same type of ground fault protection as GFCI it provides it at a different current level. It protects equipment, not people. A CAFCI breaker isn't the same as a dual function breaker. The dual function breaker does provide GFCI protection.
 

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smitty
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22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The outside is still unprotected. While a SquareD AFCI breaker provides the same type of ground fault protection as GFCI it provides it at a different current level. It protects equipment, not people. A CAFCI breaker isn't the same as a dual function breaker. The dual function breaker does provide GFCI protection.
I Googled the "dual function breaker"---identified by the purple sticker.
But ALL the other AFCI breakers have the white sticker and all but one are original to the house/panel. So what makes the outside outlets require a dual function breaker and the bathrooms & kitchen etc. don't?

thks
 

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Disrespectful to dirt
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1,075 Posts
But ALL the other AFCI breakers have the white sticker and all but one are original to the house/panel. So what makes the outside outlets require a dual function breaker and the bathrooms & kitchen etc. don't?
Those other circuits are likely protected by GFCI receptacles physically located in the rooms they service. This is in addition to the AFCI breakers in the panel.

The outdoor receptacles were previously protected by the GFCI receptacle you replaced with a standard receptacle. You took out the GFCI protection and didn't replace it with something equivalent. That's the difference.
 

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smitty
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22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So now I have an ARC fault interrupter but not a GROUND fault interrupter??
Is the current leakage & time frame, the same to trip them?

And now it's ok to run the two different types of interrupters in series, assuming that they are not of the same type (arc versus ground)?

Are there any other interrupters out there (or on the horizon) that homeowners need to know about??

thks
 

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Registered
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254 Posts
I Googled the "dual function breaker"---identified by the purple sticker.
But ALL the other AFCI breakers have the white sticker and all but one are original to the house/panel. So what makes the outside outlets require a dual function breaker and the bathrooms & kitchen etc. don't?

thks
The outside outlets don't need arc-fault protection, only ground-fault protection. Same is true for the garage.
 

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Registered
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9,502 Posts
The outside outlets don't need arc-fault protection, only ground-fault protection.
That may vary according to your AHJ.

My AHJ says if the circuit has one device inside the house, it requires AFCI. So, one receptacle inside the house would bump an otherwise exterior circuit up to a dual function breaker.
A light switch inside for exterior flood lights would require AFCI on the circuit.
Or, a switch inside the house for the garage light circuit would also calL for AFCI.

Meanwhile, what is this white sticker business ?
The Square D color code is the color of the test button.
 

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smitty
Joined
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22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I misspoke
Indeed the color is on the test button

FWIW:


Sorry for the misdirection.

Again thanks to everyone who has joined in to straighten me out.
EVERYONE has been extremely helpful.

smitty
 

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Disrespectful to dirt
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1,075 Posts
So now I have an ARC fault interrupter but not a GROUND fault interrupter??
Correct. You removed a GFCI device but replaced it with an AFCI device.

Is the current leakage & time frame, the same to trip them?
They serve different purposes and trip with different fault conditions. But one thing most manufacturers include in AFCI breakers is identical to GFCI protection except for trip level. The AFCI will throw a ground fault trip at 30 mA leakage while the GFCI will trip at 5 mA. 5 mA is the maximum through-body current most humans can sustain indefinitely without harm which is why GFCI protection is set at that level. So the AFCI does not provide protection to people while GFCI does.

And now it's ok to run the two different types of interrupters in series, assuming that they are not of the same type (arc versus ground)?
It always has been. The devices do not interfere with each other.

Are there any other interrupters out there (or on the horizon) that homeowners need to know about??
Not yet. Just more of the existing ones in more and more places.
 
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