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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I want to set up a transfer switch for my well pump and a separate one for the house.
But I have a unique situation:
There is a main utility breaker box outside on the corner of my property. (It's the kind that is separate and comes out the ground and has a meter and a main breaker for the entire property.) This then runs over to my well pump shed. In the well pump shed there is a sub-panel that has a 100a breaker for my house and some other breakers for the well pump equipment. My house has a separate electrical panel on it. There are no breakers on the house panel that control the well pump etc.
I have a 10k/8k generator that has a 50a and separate 30a outlets. I have a 60a Square D QO transfer switch with interlock that I'd like to hook up to the well pump and run that to my inlet and onto the 50a outlet on the generator. Then from the 30a outlet on the generator, I hope to run a separate cord to the house's transfer switch (Reliance 6 circuit.)
Since everything on my property seems to have it's own panel, I'm not sure how to hook up my Square D transfer switch to the well pump the correct and safe way.
If anyone has any ideas. Please let me know.
Thank you!
 

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Wait, so the first stop after the main breaker/meter box is your well pump shed? And therein is a subpanel that has several breakers, one feeding the well pump and another feeding the house? Is that correct?

Can we get a photo of the subpanel in the well shed, and/or photo of large instruction sticker, and/or model number? There may be a super easy way to do everything you want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
643167
643168
Electricity Electrical wiring Gas Cable Computer hardware


Here is the panel in the well pump shed. Photos are with the cover on to show labels, closeup, and then cover off.
 

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Double lug grounds aside, what is that cord going to your 20A booster pump breaker besides an accident waiting to happen?
 

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Are you kidding me? You have a 12-space panel with 4 spaces free. It's (apparently) a Siemens lineage panel that takes Siemens breakers, with extra slack on every breaker to make em easy to move. And the incoming main feed is 125A. Wow, it's like you just cued that one up for me lol.

- Move all breakers down 2 positions.

- New 125A Siemens breaker on the top left side. ($50-ish)

- New 50 amp Siemens breaker on the top right side. ($10-ish)

- Siemens ECSBPK01 generator interlock on the 2 new breakers, both providing physical tiedown and interlocking them. ($27)

- Main feeder that now goes to main lugs, is moved to the 125A breaker.

- Off the 50A breaker, run 50A wire to a generator inlet location of your choice. ($70ish?)

That was easy

Now you are switching this entire panel between utility and gen. Throw the switch and it throws over both the well pump and the house. Just like that, it's done.

Note that while this setup can run anything, it cannot run everything at once. It's advisable to shut off large loads at the house panel before throwing over to generator, that way the generator doesn't come up and instantly bog.

Oh yeah.

- Get rid of the alien (Challenger) breaker and fit a proper Siemens there. Not only is it not compatible with your busing (it's technically compatible with BR but not legally compatible), Challenger breakers are known to have very serious defects and should be replaced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the info. I guess I'll return the transfer switch.
Unfortunatley the Siemens ECSBPK01 generator interlock is out of stock everywhere I'm looking. Do you know if there are other interlock models that will work?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I am not using the breaker that is marked "Heat Tape" as one of the previous owners must have removed that device. The wires are going to a box that the wires are capped off with wire wirenuts. So theoretically I can remove that breaker and free up more space. (The heat tape was to keep the pipes from freezing. We live in Southern California which rarely ever drops below that.)
 

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Did I just save you $400 on a transfer switch? :) I love doing that :)

If the ECSBPK01 is out of stock, you can try the ECSBPK02 which ties two breakers that are side-by-side (vertically instead of horizontally).

If you can't get that one either, it may be time for a new subpanel for which you can get a generator interlock -- this panel is out of spaces (with the interlock) and that's not a good situation to be in.

If you're asking for my blessing to go with a competitor's breakers and interlock that fits those breakers, I can't advise that - these breakers will handle your entire service rating, and we've seen them fail on 20A circuits. The bus stabs really are different shapes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Did I just save you $400 on a transfer switch? :) I love doing that :)

If the ECSBPK01 is out of stock, you can try the ECSBPK02 which ties two breakers that are side-by-side (vertically instead of horizontally).

If you can't get that one either, it may be time for a new subpanel for which you can get a generator interlock -- this panel is out of spaces (with the interlock) and that's not a good situation to be in.

If you're asking for my blessing to go with a competitor's breakers and interlock that fits those breakers, I can't advise that - these breakers will handle your entire service rating, and we've seen them fail on 20A circuits. The bus stabs really are different shapes.
Ok so I got everything. I got the ECSBPK02. Plus I bought a new 100a for main house breaker to replace the Challenger. So I just wanted to check the placement location of the breakers. I’ll be removing the breaker marked “heat tape” entirely.
Assuming it’s now new 125a on top, new 50a below it and interlock on those. Should the house 100a be below that or does it matter and do any of the other breaker locations matter as well?
Thanks for any input.
 

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Did I just save you $400 on a transfer switch? :) I love doing that :)

If the ECSBPK01 is out of stock, you can try the ECSBPK02 which ties two breakers that are side-by-side (vertically instead of horizontally).

If you can't get that one either, it may be time for a new sub-panel for which you can get a generator interlock -- this panel is out of spaces (with the interlock) and that's not a good situation to be in.

If you're asking for my blessing to go with a competitor's breakers and interlock that fits those breakers, I can't advise that - these breakers will handle your entire service rating, and we've seen them fail on 20A circuits. The bus stabs really are different shapes.
Very nicely done. You have given the OP the flexibility to use any load in his home that his generator can carry and yes you did save him money and a lot of wasted effort. I was going to ask him how much the transfer switch cost because every time I had to buy one of the actual multi pole double throw transfer switches the price stung! Then I realized he was only writing about a Square D QO interlock kit and those are relatively minor money. With his generator in one of those metal lawnmower or trash can sheds out at the well house he'll be able to line it with the aluminum faced insulating panels and cut the noise way down. 👏 Are you planning to coach him through the cleaning up of the Equipment Grounding Conductors in his well house's feeder supplied panel? I do love that cords EGC tucked under what looks like the bonding noodle. Glad that cord is no longer in use and being removed.

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Tom Horne
 

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I am not using the breaker that is marked "Heat Tape" as one of the previous owners must have removed that device. The wires are going to a box that the wires are capped off with wire wire nuts. So theoretically I can remove that breaker and free up more space. (The heat tape was to keep the pipes from freezing. We live in Southern California which rarely ever drops below that.)
I don't think I'm being alarmist by pointing out that it very seldom gets well below freezing or for very long in Texas or Oklahoma but you have seen what happened there. The climate really is changing and we don't have to argue about why it is changing to agree that it is. So you might want to consider insulating any exposed water piping thoroughly and perhaps even reinstalling the heat tape. Unless you install a lot of it the additional load is rather light. It's a cheap upgrade and given that you are already trying to protect yourself from abnormal conditions it may be a prudent thing to do.

Out of idle curiosity may I ask what the circuit marked Low level alarm is actually for? Does it monitor the well level?

One other thing while your at it. Each building, including your well house, has to have a Grounding Electrode system. Even though the Well House panel is not the Service Disconnecting Means it is a Building Disconnecting Means so you will have to connect all of the Grounding Electrodes that are already there into a system that gives you an effective way to disperse lightning or surge currents. If you get any substantial Lightning in your area that becomes even more important. One thing that many folks overlook is that a metal well casing makes a great grounding electrode. If your well casing is very rusty, as many of them are, you will need to take a wire wheel on a drill to it and clean off the rust in a band around the casing were the connecting clamp will be installed. Rust is a much poorer conductor than steel so make sure you get all the way down to the steel. You'll want to install a Surge Arrester at your well house panel and your house's building disconnecting means; remember that those 2 will need to be a 4 wire model so that you can protect the neutral as well as the 2 energized conductors and attach the green conductor to the Equipment Grounding Conductor busbars that I think that seharper will coach you through installing.

Remember when joe-nwt said
Double lug grounds aside...
That is something that needs to be cleaned up.

If the GECs in the house are also terminated to the same busbar as the Neutral conductor of the feeder to the house is then take pictures of that panel just like you did the panel at the well house. Those photographs will help him coach you through correctly separating them there as well. You'll also want to install a surge protector at the Service Disconnecting Means in that Meter Mains assembly out by the property line. That surge protector will only need to be a 3 lead modal, and thus slightly less expensive, because that it the only place in your entire electrical system were the Neutral is bonded to the Grounding Electrode System. Since they are connected to each other there you will only need two leads for the 2 energized conductors and one Grounding lead. Given the distances that it sounds like your feeders run those Surge Protectors are important. If you have a metallic phone line or coaxial cable TV line to the house you may want to consider installing one of the multi service surge arresters so as to combine protection for all metallic conductors which enter your house in the same assembly. Outside the house make sure that the static discharge units for communications wires are all bonded to the same Grounding Electrode System as the Building Disconnecting Means. Any difference of voltage between the metal pathways entering your home can damage anything connected to 2 or more of those conductors. If you can provide a photograph of the place were the feeder conductors from the well house panel enter the house we can advise you further.

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Tom Horne
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Very nicely done. You have given the OP the flexibility to use any load in his home that his generator can carry and yes you did save him money and a lot of wasted effort. I was going to ask him how much the transfer switch cost because every time I had to buy one of the actual multi pole double throw transfer switches the price stung! Then I realized he was only writing about a Square D QO interlock kit and those are relatively minor money. With his generator in one of those metal lawnmower or trash can sheds out at the well house he'll be able to line it with the aluminum faced insulating panels and cut the noise way down. 👏 Are you planning to coach him through the cleaning up of the Equipment Grounding Conductors in his well house's feeder supplied panel? I do love that cords EGC tucked under what looks like the bonding noodle. Glad that cord is no longer in use and being removed.

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Tom Horne
Our well house shed is a decent wood frame roofed outbuilding with foundation and grounding there for the electrical. It’s old but a decent structure that keeps the noise at bay.
Originally I bought the square d switch for $40 on eBay. It was used and did not come with anything like it said. Just the shell and the breaker panel. I should have known since it was so cheap. I also bought a reliance 6 circuit switch a few years ago for $150 new/open box. Now with this new way I’m going, I plan to use that on our guest house with a separate generator there.
 

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Ok so I got everything. I got the ECSBPK02. Plus I bought a new 100a for main house breaker to replace the Challenger. So I just wanted to check the placement location of the breakers. I’ll be removing the breaker marked “heat tape” entirely.
Assuming it’s now new 125a on top, new 50a below it and interlock on those. Should the house 100a be below that or does it matter and do any of the other breaker locations matter as well?
Thanks for any input.
Panels typically have 2 sides. The ECSBPK02 will oblige you to put the 2 interlocked breakers (utility and gen) on the same side. I would also put the 100A house panel on that same side also. Alternately, put it across from the 50A breaker.

The reason is "stab limits", the stab being the thing the breaker clips onto, that feeds 2 breakers across from each other, they have thermal limits. The ECSBPK01 takes care of that issue by placing the breakers across from each other. The ECSBPK02 does not.

However having the 100A house breaker across from the 50A gen breaker is also alright. When the 50A gen breaker is active, the house can't draw more than 50A. 50+50 is well within stab limits.
 

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Our well house shed is a decent wood frame roofed outbuilding with foundation and grounding there for the electrical. It’s old but a decent structure that keeps the noise at bay.
Originally I bought the square d switch for $40 on eBay. It was used and did not come with anything like it said. Just the shell and the breaker panel. I should have known since it was so cheap. I also bought a reliance 6 circuit switch a few years ago for $150 new/open box. Now with this new way I’m going, I plan to use that on our guest house with a separate generator there.
Are you running the generator inside the well house? If you are you need to fit it out with some forced air ventilation such as powered exhaust fan in a gable end up by the roof and a fairly large screened and louvered intake vent. The exhaust fan should be large enough to cause a palpable flow of air through the intake vent. The objective is to have a full change of air in the structure every minute. You might still want the small metal shed as a place to store extra fuel. Additional fuel should not be stored in the same enclosure with an operating engine. While I'm on the subject of fuel you may want to consider adding a propane fuel kit to the generator's carburetor port. The advantage or Propane as a fuel is that it does not go bad as gasoline eventually will even if it is treated with Sta-Bil or a similar product. So either you get really careful to rotate your gasoline through your automobile, or treat it carefully and rotate it every six months, or switch to propane as the primary fuel and not have to worry about it. Propane is easier on your engine because it is inherently cleaner than gasoline.

If you are already using propane for cooking then you can really benefit from using propane as a fuel. A setup used in warehouses to fuel forklift trucks is to use a tank which is fitted with a dip tube that goes to nearly the bottom of the tank to withdraw liquid instead of gas. The liquid can be used to fill the smaller propane fuel cylinder on the forklifts. Although they are not as readily available you can find liquid propane kits for small engines. The benefit of those is that a liquid propane fueled engine takes less of a horsepower reduction from it's gasoline horsepower. That also means less of a reduction in wattage output of the alternator of the set.

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Tom Horne
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes both of my generators are duel fuel. I currently use both gas and propane for them. Here in Commy-fornia they’ve been shutting our power off when there is a even just a slight breeze outside. So I’ve had to run these
Well house does not have a door and a big opening there right where generator sits with the exhaust end basically outside. Good idea to put a fan in there to help it continue to flow out the door. I will do that.
 

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Double lug grounds aside, what is that cord going to your 20A booster pump breaker besides an accident waiting to happen?
Since no one else has returned to this issue I'm going to take it on. I recognize that it isn't much fun having inherited these improper installations but they won't be terribly hard to clean up.

First though, you may want to answer some questions that will help me to advise you about the arrangement of your water system with an eye to first aid firefighting. I served 6 years as a wildland firefighter, I'm retired from 45 years of active fire and rescue service 35 years of which were in a very busy fire house, and I have an associate degree in fire protection science so I know whereof I write.
  • Where is/are your pressure tank/s located?
  • How far are you from your nearest year round fire fire station which will actually respond to a fire at your property.
It is, of course, totally up to you if you want advise on fire protection issues.

Getting back to the issue of how the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) are terminated in the panels at your well house and your home the well house panel needs some work and going by the conditions shown in the photographs of the well house panel your house's panel may need some work as well. In any panel which is supplied by a feeder; which are commonly called Sub-Panels; rather than by service conductors the neutral conductors of the feeder and all other Grounded Current Carrying Conductors must be insulated from the panel cabinet, any connection to the earth whether accidental or deliberate, and the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) of any circuits supplied by that panel. Since Neutral Conductors carry normal operating currents if they end up bonded or faulted to conductive materials and pathways the current flowing in the neutral conductors will divide and flow on the unintended pathways and the neutral of the supplying feeder in proportion to the impedance of all available pathways. That sort of stray neutral current is never desirable. It can cause exposed conductive surfaces to become energized to varying voltages above ground introducing a shock danger between the surfaces that the stray current is flowing on and the earth. In the event of any degradation or failure of the intentional connection on the neutral conductor that voltage can rise to dangerously acute voltages which can be as high as the voltage to ground of the energized conductors. Since they are no overcurrent protection on the neutral the condition can go undetected for an unlimited period of time until livestock, a person, or pet comes into contact with the accidentally energized surface and is shocked or even electrocuted. Such unintended pathways for neutral current must be avoided to prevent undesired operational affects and electric shock.

Now the good news. doing the complete separation of the neutral conductors from other conductive pathways only requires a modest amount of work. Using the well house panel, which you have already provided photographs of, as the illustrative example let me list what needs to be done.
  • Disconnect power to the panel.
    • Working in an energized panel places you only one mistake away from the burns caused by an arc flash, electrical shock, or even electrocution. Doing so is much less commonly done than previously. The entire electrical industry has come to near consensus that it is only necessary when de-energizing the equipment would cause the risk of death to the persons directly affected. An example of that is the power to life sustaining equipment in an intensive care ward of a hospital.
  • Make certain that the neutral busbar is not bonded nor in accidental contact; that is faulted; to the panel cabinet nor to the EGCs.
  • Install a EGC busbar in the panel's cabinet.
    • The new EGC busbar should either be listed for use in that make AND MODEL of equipment, as shown on the label inside the panel's cabinet that bears the laboratory listing mark, or a busbar that has been Recognized by a testing laboratory for use in panels made by other manufacturers.
  • Remove all EGCs from the Neutral busbar of the panel, and from any other improper termination, and re-terminate those in the newly installed GEC busbar.
    • One example of an otherwise improper termination is the two branch circuit EGCs which have been doubled up with one of the feeder EGCs in the double barreled lug which terminates the feeder EGCs. That lug is not laboratory listed nor recognized to terminate more than 1 conductor in each termination.
    • You have said that you will be completely removing the flexible cord, shown in the interior photograph of the well house panel, so that improper EGC termination will be eliminated when you do so.
  • Check for a completely effective connection of the branch circuit EGC busbar and the double barrel lug which terminates the feeder EGCs.
    • This is important in the case of your well house panel because the feeder EGCs are terminated in a Separate double barrel lug which depends on the metal of the panel cabinet to connect them to the EGC busbar. There should be no measurable resistance between the EGC busbar and the feeder EGC lug.
      • Best practice would be to use the EGC busbar's Original Equipment Manufacture's (OEM) add on large conductor lugs on the EGC busbar to re-terminate the feeder EGCs.
        • That eliminates dependence on the mild steel of the well house's panel cabinet to connect them.
      • Another way to make that connection more effective and reliable would be to substitute an OEM or laboratory Recognized 3 terminal lug for the existing 2 terminal lug. You would then use a green or bare copper wire; selected for being the largest conductor which can be terminated in the EGC busbar; to bond to the new 3 terminal lug. Select the new 3 terminal lug which is listed to terminate the size of the bonding jumper and the feeder EGC conductors. Both wire gauges must be within the range of sizes marked on the new 3 terminal lug.
  • RE-energize the feeder at the Service Equipment were the utility service drop or lateral connects to the Service Disconnecting Means.
  • Test at one of branch circuit outlet at the well house for the voltage between the energized conductors and the EGC. It should measure very closely to the voltage between the energized conductor and the neutral conductor.
  • Test for voltage between the neutral conductor and the EGC at that same Outlet. There will be a slight difference due to the voltage drop of the current flow through the neutral but anything more than a single digit difference is cause for concern. More importantly the lack of any measurable difference in the voltage between the EGCs and the feeder neutral conductors is a good indication that some connection or fault still exist between them some where in the wiring at the well house.
    • If such contact between them is indicated find that connection or fault and clear it.
Now you get to repeat the process at the house panel. Again it would be helpful if you would provide photographs of that panel similar to the photographs that you provided of the well house panel. The photographs will save a lot of exchanges of questions and answers and allow me or one of the other advisors that answer questions here to provide fully code compliant advice.

Good Luck

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Tom Horne
 

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I served 6 years as a wildland firefighter, I'm retired from 45 years of active fire and rescue service 35 years of which were in a very busy fire house, and I have an associate degree in fire protection science so I know whereof I write.
I'm dying to know your opinion of PG&E's new policy of shutting off power on transmission lines which they feel haven't been adequately cleared of reaching tree limbs (the biggest wildfires in the state have been attributed to this). These are the blackouts OP mentioned. Does this really prevent wildfire, or is futile/theater/whatever? Are they turning them off at appropriate times, or just to annoy citizens? Is CalFire advising them? (it's a sign of the times that the California Dept. of Forestry just gave up and changed their name to CalFire).
 

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I'm dying to know your opinion of PG&E's new policy of shutting off power on transmission lines which they feel haven't been adequately cleared of reaching tree limbs (the biggest wildfires in the state have been attributed to this). These are the blackouts OP mentioned. Does this really prevent wildfire, or is futile/theater/whatever? Are they turning them off at appropriate times, or just to annoy citizens? Is CalFire advising them? (it's a sign of the times that the California Dept. of Forestry just gave up and changed their name to CalFire).
I think it provides clear evidence of the ongoing neglect of the country's electrical distribution grid. California is the only State in these United States which has a Mediterranean climate. That is the term used by weather forecasters and climatologists to describe any area that has a climate much like that which surrounds the Mediterranean sea. That is why the chickens first came home to roost there. The disaster in Oklahoma and Texas is the second result of the nationwide pattern of neglect of maintenance, upgrading, and needed expansion of the power grid. The fossil fuel profiteers tried to blame the power shortage on alternative energy but the socialist media had the nerve to point out that most of the production shortfall was caused by avoiding the costs of thermally insulating gas production facilities and high wind hardening of distribution lines in the face of worsening winters and far more violent hurricanes. I tracked hurricanes as a hobby when I was a teenager. I would plot each new position report on the free map you could mail away to the National Weather Service for. Six named storms in one year was a huge deal back then. Now that would be considered a rather slow Atlantic hurricane season.

When I was a lot younger the utilities were run by electrical engineers and a few of those engineers got their degree at night school while working as outside wireman. Now they are run by business managers. It seems that all they truly know is the practices developed by Andrew Carnegie. Put into a single statement he once said "Take care of costs and profit takes care of itself." Today's business management graduates do not know how to look beyond that slogan to the actual practices of the tycoons of the robber baron era. They are often quoted as saying "You have to spend money to make money." There ethics aside they new that it took continuous investment in improvement to stay productive and competitive. As soon as the successors to those Titans of Industry forgot that principle the end of American dominance of World manufacturing began.

We have had 2 serious ice storms in the Mid Atlantic region of the country since I moved here in 1980. I'd done my wildland firefighting in central California during the seventies. After that first ice storm I was one of the firefighters who was assigned to escort the mutual aid crews of outside wireman; who are usually called lineman by the public and the press; as they undertook the massive job or repairing the overhead distribution plant which had succumbed nearly completely to the weight of the accumulated ice on the lines. My role was to provide an immediately present Emergency Medical Technician and Automatic External Defibrillator near their work. Many of those wireman were from Hydro-Québec and the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). Take note that both of those electric utilities are publicly owned. During their work breaks they gave me quite an education on the state of privately owned electrical utilities. They told me that much of the equipment in use by the Potomac Electric Power Company, a publicly traded stock utility, belonged in a museum. They pointed out the 3 and sometimes more splices in some of the spans between 2 adjacent poles. They said in complete seriousness "This is stuff our Grandfathers would have worked on." They pointed out the use of triple racks with 3 individual conductors in a service drop to a house which is still very common here more than 20 years later. The use of Triplex, were the 2 energized conductors are wrapped around the Aluminum Clad Steel Reinforced (ACSR) Neutral conductor, would provide some resistance to the weight of severe icing and the falling limbs torn off of trees by the weight of the ice accumulated on them. But that would be an upgrade and upgrading costs money. The resulting power outage lasted 14 days in spite of the efforts of over 1,000 Outside Wireman drawn from as far away as Louisiana.

15 years later we had another severe ice storm which was, due to continuing neglect, a repeat of the first one complete with with a 9 day power outage. 10 years after that we had a Derecho accompanied by a 7 day power outage. Nature threw in the odd tornado in between with people killed because they were stuck in rush hour traffic and had trees fall on their cars. But remember global warming is a myth invented by the communist, er I mean socialist, enemies of capitalism who refuse to acknowledge that profit is the one true God.

The list goes on but I'm sure you get the main drift of it. As long as these business school types are "taking care of costs" by deferring maintenance and upgrades for as long as they can get away with these problems will continue. Pacific Gas and Electric is getting sued into insolvency because their present management only worried about the next quarters stock price. They will need a lot of reinvestment before they become fully functional. I don't have any idea were the political will to force PG&E, PEPCO CUM EXCELON. et al to do the neglected work will come from. One very scarce resource is investors who understand that "You have to spend money to make money." rather than just gamble on the next quarter's stock price being high enough for taking quick profit on the sale of the stock. Modern"Investors" are just high stakes gamblers who's motto is "I want mine now."

Back when I was fighting wildfires the worst corporate igniter was the Western Pacific Railroad. The then California Department of Forestry fined them out of existence by charging them every dime of the suppression cost of each and every fire their poorly maintained engines and rolling stock ignited. Along comes Laissez-faire deregulation and the State can no longer charge a corporate fire igniter for the fires they cause because that would be socialistic.

As to how the Division of Forestry of the Department of Natural Resources became the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, which the State branded CalFire in recognition of that being their overwhelmingly dominant workload, it was the product of a State government reorganization. The legislature combined all of the fire protection functions of the State into a single entity including the office of the State Fire Marshal, the then Division of Forestry, and some lesser boards an commissions that I no longer recall if I ever knew. The roll of the Department of Forestry had shifted to the protection of human build improvements in the wildland urban interface areas of the State which were growing by leaps and bounds as the population pushed home building out into forested areas in search of homes that ordinary working people could get a mortgage on.

You did ask. And that in spite of the huge sign that says "DON'T PUSH THIS BIG RED BUTTON!"
Red! Get it? "Cause if you've marched or agitated your bound to hear it said. Because you ain't been doing nothing if you ain't been called a red!" Melvina Reynolds.
They called my father a red because he was Union. They call me Socialist because I am Union. I wonder what they'll call my grandchildren if they work in unionized industries?

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Tom Horne
 
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