[maxw72]

Hello, I joined the DIY chatroom as I found someone had a similar problem to me but I wasn't able to get an answer. I currently am looking at adding stairs from my main floor to the unfinished basement. There is currently no hole for the stairs to go and so I would need to be cutting a for the new stairs. Upon looking into where I would put the stairs I found something odd with the joists in the basement. I found that there is a section of joists in an area where I would like to put the stairs going the opposite way of the rest of the room. Now I thought that it is possible a cantilever as there is a bay window but it just seemed a bit odd for that. I'm in Utah and the Utah code for width of stairs is 36". I measured the area and if you take a look at the images I have attached, the area from yellow highlight to yellow highlight is exactly 36". So I'm wondering, were these joists put in as an afterthought and as a designated spot for the stairs? As you can see these joists are connected to a triple joist and an exterior wall. i have attached an image as well as to what is above these odd joists. I'm not sure if it matters, but the home when the neighborhood was originally built was the model home.

Let me know what you think. Also if I decide to take these joists out and make it the spot for my stairs what things should I look out for? I've done a lot of deck stairs and decks but I've never cut into the floor, though I will have help from my FIL, he tends to make things seem easier than they actually are. Thanks in advance!

 

[huesmann]

Is that wall where the TV is hanging (in the shot with the beams) an exterior wall, and if not, what's behind it?

 

[maxw72]

Is that wall where the TV is hanging (in the shot with the beams) an exterior wall, and if not, what's behind it?

You are correct, That is an exterior wall. If you look at the other picture, it is the same exterior wall you see in the living room picture with the bay window.

 

[3onthetree]

That framing is what is required for the cantilever. You'll have to find another spot. Besides, the stairs wouldn't fit there, you lose your living room, and walk right into the wall. Unless you are doing a second stair as a spiral for looks, consider a 12' run for starters.

Curious, where are your stairs now?

 

[maxw72]

That framing is what is required for the cantilever. You'll have to find another spot. Besides, the stairs wouldn't fit there, you lose your living room, and walk right into the wall. Unless you are doing a second stair as a spiral for looks, consider a 12' run for starters.

Curious, where are your stairs now?

So that is where I have a question. So to my knowledge, which is pretty thin, is that a cantilever would allow for some sort of extension beyond the foundation of the house correct? Example I have a second story deck that is supported in a cantilever fashion of the boards going from the space between the main floor and upstairs floor and extends outside to support the second story deck. That is how a cantilever is used correct? Now in the case of the image, you can see the entire joist in the image, except for the 4 inches that is behind the insulation. Those joists are only about 42" long. They don't extend outside of the house at all. There is the bay window you can see but those joists stop before the bay window.

In answer to your other question, There currently are no interior stairs that go to the basement. The basement currently only has an exterior stair access. We have stairs that go from the main floor to the upstairs and the only contractor I have been able to get in said the easiest place to put the new stairs would be directly under those stairs, but it is in a less desirable spot and would involve framing in a current opening in the basement, along with, creating a new entry in the load bearing wall. I also had him come in about three weeks ago and after a call every week asking for his quote he has stopped responding.

 

[3onthetree]

I would assume those I-joists extend to the end of the bay window, and there is blocking over the foundation wall as required. But what do I know, I assume there would be stairs to a basement in any house after, say, 1930. If there are other houses in the development like yours, see if you can view how they did their stairs, again assuming they have some. Is this common to the Utah lifestyle, maybe allowing an independent "household" downstairs?

Your contractor is right, the easiest place is under the existing stairs. Make no mistake, there will be involved work no matter where you put them. He could be ghosting you depending on your attitude towards the $$ or he's just a loser, or he's waiting to hear back from an engineer for their cost, etc. Bids and paperwork is not a strong suit for many hammer swingers, so be patient.

 

[Nealtw]

You could put a foundation under the bump out or remove the bump out and make it a flat wall.

 

[maxw72]

I would assume those I-joists extend to the end of the bay window, and there is blocking over the foundation wall as required. But what do I know, I assume there would be stairs to a basement in any house after, say, 1930. If there are other houses in the development like yours, see if you can view how they did their stairs, again assuming they have some. Is this common to the Utah lifestyle, maybe allowing an independent "household" downstairs?

Your contractor is right, the easiest place is under the existing stairs. Make no mistake, there will be involved work no matter where you put them. He could be ghosting you depending on your attitude towards the $$ or he's just a loser, or he's waiting to hear back from an engineer for their cost, etc. Bids and paperwork is not a strong suit for many hammer swingers, so be patient.

I'll have to take a look at the joists around the bay window. As the bay window doesn't span that entire wall, I would assume the lengths of the I joists would be different depending on their location relevant to the bay window. So having exterior stairs down to the basement, completely normal. What isn't normal is not having any stairs on the interior of the house. The only thing I have been able to come up with is that with it being the model home for the development, built in the early 90's, was that the builder wanted to show as much open space as possible and so they left the stairs out, as well as they didn't want to have people going down to the unfinished basement. That is the only reasonable thing that I can come up with in my mind. I'll take a look at the joists tonight and see if anything sticks out. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Nealtw]

You have the floor like on the right here.

 

[maxw72]

You have the floor like on the right here.

The image is very appreciated! Neal where you know a lot about framing (noticed the retired framer tag) Is this something normal? The fact that the joists are all running one way and then this small section is running the complete opposite direction?

 

[Nealtw]

The image is very appreciated! Neal where you know a lot about framing (noticed the retired framer tag) Is this something normal? The fact that the joists are all running one way and then this small section is running the complete opposite direction?

Yes that is very normal, in order to carry the weight of the bump out the joists have to go some distance into the house.

More often it is just the ones for the bump out with lots of blocking so the subfloor sheets all stay in the same direction.

You do have some options, as stated earlier.
Add to the foundation.
Remove the bump out and install flat windows
Re structure the bottom of the bump out and install a bench inside so it is supported off the side of the building. May need engineer to design.



How important is the bump out with stairs in front of it causing no access.



The other problem you need to check out is the total length of the room

You need close to 12 ft opening and the bottom of the stairs will be longer than that and you need a 3 ft landing at both ends.

 

[maxw72]

Yes that is very normal, in order to carry the weight of the bump out the joists have to go some distance into the house.

More often it is just the ones for the bump out with lots of blocking so the subfloor sheets all stay in the same direction.

You do have some options, as stated earlier.
Add to the foundation.
Remove the bump out and install flat windows
Re structure the bottom of the bump out and install a bench inside so it is supported off the side of the building. May need engineer to design.



How important is the bump out with stairs in front of it causing no access.



The other problem you need to check out is the total length of the room

You need close to 12 ft opening and the bottom of the stairs will be longer than that and you need a 3 ft landing at both ends.

Thank you for the options. I'm beginning to notice that though the image I have sent is the desired area, with those changes, it may not be the least expensive area.

On a side note, looking at the picture of the finished room, it is somewhat an optical illusion. Based on the angle it looks like the couch is right up against the wall, in reality there is about a 2.5 foot gap and I want to say the width of that room is probably close to 15 feet wide. My question for you Neal would be if I made the necessary changes, and if I went with a stair design similar to the attached in this message, is the hole that I need in the floor as big? I know that code says I need 6'8" of headroom at all time, but what I was imaging was having this majority of the stairs going down and then the landing and turn at the load bearing wall in the basement.

 

[Nealtw]

Thank you for the options. I'm beginning to notice that though the image I have sent is the desired area, with those changes, it may not be the least expensive area.

On a side note, looking at the picture of the finished room, it is somewhat an optical illusion. Based on the angle it looks like the couch is right up against the wall, in reality there is about a 2.5 foot gap and I want to say the width of that room is probably close to 15 feet wide. My question for you Neal would be if I made the necessary changes, and if I went with a stair design similar to the attached in this message, is the hole that I need in the floor as big? I know that code says I need 6'8" of headroom at all time, but what I was imaging was having this majority of the stairs going down and then the landing and turn at the load bearing wall in the basement.

Turning the bottom is an option but if you have an 8 ft basement

If floor to ceiling is 96" you have 16" to work with for a landing and maintain 80" headroom.

Depending on the total floor to floor height and minimal number of risers

A landing at the second step height may be as much a 15 1/2" high.

But you do save 16 inches in the length of the stairs.

 

[3onthetree]

The fact that the joists are all running one way and then this small section is running the complete opposite direction?

This is what it would look like if they kept the same I-joist direction.

A double beam on each side, little I-joist shorties either side of this window, and maybe a larger main parallel beam. It's much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient to turn the framing perpendicular in this area.

From what I've seen so far, it's time to put a stair in this area to bed. It just doesn't make sense in many ways. Focus on the existing stair location.

 

[Nealtw]

This is what it would look like if they kept the same I-joist direction.
View attachment 602525

A double beam on each side, little I-joist shorties either side of this window, and maybe a larger main parallel beam. It's much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient to turn the framing perpendicular in this area.

From what I've seen so far, it's time to put a stair in this area to bed. It just doesn't make sense in many ways. Focus on the existing stair location.

We put blocking in too for that.

We have added a back porch that included a staircase down like a covered outside stairs to the basement.

 

[ron45]

You said there are stairs leading to the basement from the outside.?

Why not enclose that area and open up the wall and put the stairs there.
This way your living quarters is not or barely disturbed.

 

[maxw72]

You said there are stairs leading to the basement from the outside.?

Why not enclose that area and open up the wall and put the stairs there.
This way your living quarters is not or barely disturbed.

Where the stairs sit it is somewhat in a weird spot and would involve a 48" drop down to the stairs and finding the entrance to those stairs would be a bit difficult as well.

 

[ron45]

Is it a bulkhead.?

 

[maxw72]

Is it a bulkhead.?

No it is a standard cement stairwell but finding a way to get to the stairwell would be difficult due to the fact that it lines the exterior wall of our kitchen and bathroom.

 

[maxw72]

Yes that is very normal, in order to carry the weight of the bump out the joists have to go some distance into the house.

More often it is just the ones for the bump out with lots of blocking so the subfloor sheets all stay in the same direction.

You do have some options, as stated earlier.
Add to the foundation.
Remove the bump out and install flat windows
Re structure the bottom of the bump out and install a bench inside so it is supported off the side of the building. May need engineer to design.



How important is the bump out with stairs in front of it causing no access.



The other problem you need to check out is the total length of the room

You need close to 12 ft opening and the bottom of the stairs will be longer than that and you need a 3 ft landing at both ends.

Neal, Could you further explain this?

Re structure the bottom of the bump out and install a bench inside so it is supported off the side of the building. May need engineer to design

Obviously an engineer would be needed but my father in law explained something to me that sounded similar I believe to this and I was wondering if you could further explain this.