[redogsc]

I'm a Real Estate Broker, who also enjoys doing a good bit of DIY work on my own house. Yesterday, a home inspection on one of my listings came back stating that the electrical panel had grounds and neutrals under the same screws. It occurred to me that my panel is wired the same way. From my research this was never technically correct, but there was confusion on the practice based on the manufacturer instructions. Something about the word "Grounding" vs. the word "Grounded"

Anyway, here are a couple of pictures of the neutral bars on my panel.

Right Side

Left Side

So on the right side there are two neutral bars. The one in the back is unused. It seems like it would be easy to fix this side by moving all of the grounds to the back bar.

On the left side, I suppose I could buy a ground bar and add it to the back of the panel, but I would have to extend all of my grounds to reach it. It looks like the panel was set up to have another bar installed to the left of the bus that's already there. Note the slot in the plastic, plastic nub sticking out, and screw hole in the ear right above the nub. Could I just buy a QO ground bar and install it there, to recreate the same situation as I have on the other side?

Thanks!

 

[Jim Port]

Splicing is allowed to reach the new ground bar.

I don't see an issue adding a neutral bar on the left side.

Having neutrals and grounds on the same bar is specifically allowed in service panels only. Neutrals should be one per hole.

 

[seharper]

Evict the grounds

Every panel comes with enough neutral spaces for anything you can legally do with the panel. (at least anything supported). Neutral bars get used up when people put grounds on them. While it is not illegal to do that *in a main panel*, it's not a right.

You see ground bars and you see how easily they can just be bolted on as an accessory/afterthought. Indeed Square D probably provides several sites pre-drilled for their ground bars - and if you don't like those, you can mount your own by drilling your own holes and tapping (self-tapping screws) -32 thread pitch or finer, which is irrelevant if you extend a ground wire to the extra bar.

So people think "that's so easy, well I can just add an accessory neutral bar the same way, right?" No. This error in thinking comes because people see neutrals and grounds going to the same place, so tend to assume they're the same thing. Not at all. Neutral "works for a living" - it handles all return and imbalance current. The neutral bars have to carry potentially 100% of the ampacity of the panel, and they are attached with hefty insulated bus bars which are up to the task.

Ground bars never handle current except during a fault condition. Therefore ground attachments can be more informal - but I've seen a ground fault vaporize an N-G bonding screw, so I like to wire them also.

---------


I know the guy who did it *thought* he was being cutesie, but has no idea the threat he created. If those two wires had a loose connection with the bar, *but were still in connection with each other*, it would electrify every ground in the circuit! There's a right way to put neutrals and grounds on bars, and that ain't it. That's Code.

And may have been going for "neat points" also. A word on that: "Neat" is when every hot and neutral can reach any space in the panel. That lets you fit AFCIs and move breakers around as necessary. Nipping them down to barely long enough is just a waste.

 

[Old Thomas]

In 1982 my uncle, who worked for the power company, wired mine that way and it passed inspection then and again 10 years ago. I have thought about rewiring it, but it is a someday project that I may or may not get to while I am still roaming the earth.

 

[Jim Port]

There is no issue, nor is it wrong, to install a grounding conductor in the neutral bar in a service panel. The instructions on the label specifically say that unused holes can be used for grounding conductors. Some express opinion as if it were code.

 

[afjes2015]

redogsc:

Something about the word "Grounding" vs. the word "Grounded"

Since you will probably face this issue again in the future it might help if you read up on the difference between the two "terms".



Read here ---> "Grounding" and "Grounded"

 

[seharper]

There is no issue, nor is it wrong, to install a grounding conductor in the neutral bar in a service panel. The instructions on the label specifically say that unused holes can be used for grounding conductors. Some express opinion as if it were code.

Out of curiosity, I read upward to see who said that. No one did. What or who are you talking about???

 

[afjes2015]

Out of curiosity, I read upward to see who said that. No one did. What or who are you talking about???

Seharper: I believe that Jim Port is making the statement in a "general manner" - not specifically directed to a specific reply in this thread.