[amodoko]

Just wanted to post a question about a friend's car and see what you all think the issue is. She's going to have a shop look at it this weekend. But the story goes she was driving the car (her VW Jetta) and for the past few times she drove her car she felt the car would once in a while feel like it was stuttering or not getting power in some way, but the car still worked so she kept on driving it. Then one day while she was driving the Jetta the first thing to go wrong was the AC stopped working while she was driving, then she said the car became hard to steer (I'm assuming her power steering went out), then her power windows no longer worked, the car was beeping a noise at her, lights came on her dash (I think a few of them, like the traction light, etc), and then she pulled over on the side of the road and then the car just died on its own. I have a few ideas of what I think it could be, but wanted to hear from people that know more about this stuff. Once the shop gives a diagnosis, I'll update the thread to let you all know what they say.

 

[Chris616]

All the symptoms from the day the car stopped working would match what would happen if the serpentine belt failed (either broke and came off or is slipping because of a failed tensioner). The belt drives the AC compressor, the power steering pump and the alternator (the thing that produces electricity to charge the battery and keep electrical things running, including the engine).

Chris

 

[Old Thomas]

And that belt could have whipped around and taken something else out. A belt driven accessory or tensioner could have been going bad and then seized.

 

[ukrkoz]

1. never try to "help friend' especially, a female. I get it, manly pride, but it has too many variables to go wrong.
2. let shop look at it. Maybe nod head with wise expression on face and say Hmm few times, but... see 1.
3. rid of VW. They have pretty interior lights and are PLAGUED with electric gremlins. PLAGUED.

4. now, if you stubbornly choose to pursue your destiny.. here's the thing. Go peak under hood and onto that German wundermachine battery. Is there a large plastic plate on top of it, about 3/4 inch thick? Well, if it is there, it has a bunch of most advanced and rather complicated electronic gizmos, without which, according to German ingenuity, there is no way to supply electricity to power train. One of those gizmos goes bad, alles kaput. How do I know? Because DIL had one of them wunder machinen. And that was exactly what happened - she got caught going uphill after shopping. D-E-D. Dead in place and in instant. Fortunately, my son still had some husband will power over her then, so that thing was traded in right away, after several hundred bucks capacitor or transistor replacement in that battery panel.


I spoke.

 

[Brainbucket]

Sounds like the alternator took a dump.:vs_cool:

 

[Nealtw]

Could be a belt too??

 

[Colbyt]

When it happen to me it was just a belt.

 

[ukrkoz]

Well, we'll see what OP will find out. Surely, it can be a belt. Or, ignition lock. If it's a belt, then starter will crank, right? Does it? If it's alternator, car can drive surprisingly long distance on just battery, ask me how I know.

More like ECM. But, even then, something will crank. Here, you have - from little info supplied - total electric failure.

 

[amodoko]

Ok guys, here's the diagnosis and the story that goes along with it. Her husband called his tow company, and the tow guy first tried jumping the car. The car would start when jumped, but would immediately die when the tow guy took his jumper cables off the car. The tow guy said, based on his battery jumper readings, the Jetta was draining his battery jumper so the Jetta was not able to electrically maintain itself. The tow guy then tried turning the wheel on the Jetta and said it was so hard to turn that he believed it was a belt issue that was causing these problems. He then towed it to a local repair shop and the shop diagnosed it with having a bad belt, bad alternator, and a bad battery. The shop didn't say what the initial cause of failure was, just that all 3 needed to be replaced. They wanted to charge $1200 for the repair, but my friends have had this car for a long time and it is not in the best condition and isn't worth much to them so they are simply going to have a junkyard come pick up the car rather than put money into the vehicle.

The reason why I posted the question initially was because I had some confusion over the power steering issue and the tow guy kind of increased my confusion. He immediately felt it was a belt issue because the steering was so hard to turn. I understand if the belt is slipping or something that the power steering won't work well and it will be hard to turn, but let's say the belt doesn't have a problem and the battery and alternator are dying but are able to keep the car running still, will the power steering stop working well in that situation too? Meaning, does the power steering require some electrical input directly from the battery/alternator to power it or is it purely run off the belt?

I initially felt it had to do with the battery, alternator, or belt, or some combination. I initially was leaning towards an alternator or belt problem over a battery issue, but couldn't figure out if an alternator issue or belt issue made more sense with regards to the power steering issue specifically.

I appreciate everyone's responses, was a fun little thing for me to think about.

 

[Chris616]

The reason why I posted the question initially was because I had some confusion over the power steering issue and the tow guy kind of increased my confusion. He immediately felt it was a belt issue because the steering was so hard to turn. I understand if the belt is slipping or something that the power steering won't work well and it will be hard to turn, but let's say the belt doesn't have a problem and the battery and alternator are dying but are able to keep the car running still, will the power steering stop working well in that situation too? Meaning, does the power steering require some electrical input directly from the battery/alternator to power it or is it purely run off the belt?

No doubt there are some exotic cars where this is not the case, but for a Jetta the power steering pump is a simple mechanical/hydraulic mechanism with no electrical input.

I suspect that the only real problem was the belt, which either came off or stopped turning because the tensioner failed. Either of those would have been easy to diagnose visually (if the belt was missing), or by pressing down on the belt to check the tension, and potentially inexpensive to replace. When the belt failed the first thing that would have been evident was the air conditioner not putting out cold air because its compressor wasn’t rotating. Then the next time that a corner needed to be turned it would have been evident that the power steering pump wasn’t working. At this point the alternator was also not rotating, recharging the battery, so the battery gradually discharged as the electrical devices in the car used the electricity stored there. Finally there wouldn’t be enough power in the battery to fire the spark plugs (or run some critical computer system), so the engine would have stopped.

Completely discharging a battery isn’t good for it, so if it was old this event may have damaged the battery, but I think it unlikely that the alternator coincidentally died when the belt failed, so that might be a case of the repair shop adding extra unneeded work.

Chris

 

[Porsche986S]

If it were me I'd put a serpentine belt on it and get it started as it's possible that is all that is wrong with it . Worst case is the car really needs additional repairs . If it runs after the belt is installed clean up the car and sell it . You may get 1K or more running vs. 50 bucks or whatever low ball offer the wrecking yard will provide .

 

[CaptTom]

I tend to agree the shop was probably milking it, but there's one scenario which fits their repair estimate: Say the alternator pulley bearings went. The wobble affects the belt, which no longer drives the AC, alternator or power steering properly. It may eventually break and you get none of these. All this time with poor or no charging from the alternator kills the battery, which if old will probably need to be replaced.

So, a new belt, alternator and battery are called for. $1200 doesn't seem too far out of line for this repair (plus any diagnosis) although it's well within the realm of DIY for a lot less. (This IS a DIY forum, remember?)

Without knowing what the car would be worth in running condition, it could be the repair is worth it, or not.

 

[ukrkoz]

Amodoko, we do not know what year that Jetta is. Newer cars tend to have electric power steering. You should do quick Google search on that year PS for that car and, far I know Germans, they tend to stay on the "cutting edge", what might as well mean - EPS. Needs to be researched.

Something - if shop diagnostic is correct, as they point towards the symptoms, not the cause - is majorly failed in electric system and, again, was I right or not, VWs are plagued with electric issues.

And, those who work on cars, know, how hard electric issues are to pin point the CAUSE.
Here's my prediction, me being Kassandra. What mechanic diagnosed appears to be on the surface results of something, that caused that failure. Also, when you say belt - safe to presume, serpentine belt? Not timing belt? Friend needs to know cause of such major failure or, after costly repairs (everything German/British/Swedish= $$$$$$$$), problem will return with the vengeance.

 

[huesmann]

I mean, with German cars, half of the labor charge is probably taking off all the engine covers and other schitt that's in the way of getting to the actual part that needs replacement. :vs_laugh:

 

[Chris616]

I’ve been researching this and there are Jetta’s with electric power steering, so part of what I wrote earlier is incorrect. I do think that the sequence of failures points to a pulley driven power steering pump, though. It doesn’t seem likely that an electric one would stop working as long as the battery was putting out power.

Chris

 

[schreib]

1. never try to "help friend' especially, a female. I get it, manly pride, but it has too many variables to go wrong.
2. let shop look at it. Maybe nod head with wise expression on face and say Hmm few times, but... see 1.
3. rid of VW. They have pretty interior lights and are PLAGUED with electric gremlins. PLAGUED.

4. now, if you stubbornly choose to pursue your destiny.. here's the thing. Go peak under hood and onto that German wundermachine battery. Is there a large plastic plate on top of it, about 3/4 inch thick? Well, if it is there, it has a bunch of most advanced and rather complicated electronic gizmos, without which, according to German ingenuity, there is no way to supply electricity to power train. One of those gizmos goes bad, alles kaput. How do I know? Because DIL had one of them wunder machinen. And that was exactly what happened - she got caught going uphill after shopping. D-E-D. Dead in place and in instant. Fortunately, my son still had some husband will power over her then, so that thing was traded in right away, after several hundred bucks capacitor or transistor replacement in that battery panel.


I spoke.

Ha. very funny and useful answer. Sehr gut!:smile:

 

[HotRodx10]

Given the progression of events described, I would speculate that the alternator was working marginally or not at all for a while prior to it dying. I takes more than a few minutes to run a battery down. Although, I had some crazy symptoms when the alternator on my minivan went bad; seems that some other components are sensitive to the small voltage drop from the 13+ volts to the 12 volts (including the AC on mine).


Obviously, the alternator is not working. The first thing to do is look to see whether there's a belt on it. If not, put a belt on it. After fully charging the battery, start it up and be sure all the pulleys are turning not wobbling really bad. If the pulleys are ok, take it to pretty much any auto parts chain store and ask them to run a charging system check (maybe 2 different ones, just to be sure they they both say the same).



When a battery is dead, there's no way to know whether it's bad or not, so don't replace it until it's been charged and then tested.

 

[JohnnyVirgil]

This is what happens when your alternator stops charging your battery, and you run the battery down. I had the exact same thing happen to me in a Honda. Except in addition to all the mayhem with the dash lights, and the loss of power steering, it was night and I watched my headlights slowly dim to nothing.

 

[Tom153]

First check if the timing belt is in place. If it is not, don't crank the engine, or you might damage your valves. Also, at the same time check the serpentine belt, which drives accessories. If it's broken, your car won't run anyway, so don't crank it.

 

[ukrkoz]

Ha. very funny and useful answer. Sehr gut!:smile:

Unfortunately, real life based.
Roads you know where are paved with good intentions and not a single good deed goes unpunished. Plus, family had a VW. Never again.