[ggr]

Hello everyone, been lurking online here for a while, but finally time to create an account and get some help. So I am finishing the third floor “bonus” area of our home….its one area with stairs coming up in middle – 850ish sqft. I am thinking a dual zone minisplit is the easiest and most efficient way to go for heating and cooling. I have three quotes: 5600, 6500, 9000. If I buy online I am looking at around 3000 plus cost of having the electrical install for the outdoor part. I am doing all the work inside, and am not afraid of hanging ceiling cassettes etc. So…finally, my question:

I have never ran copper lines…and never ran “conduit”/ housing down side of house for line set. I am sure it isn’t rocket science; I’ve just never done it. How hard????

Also, of concern to me, if I have problems what to do…. I have asked several people/companies if they would help with install/check my work and I get a universal NO. If they don’t install they will not help/look over my work. I know I cannot pressure test line, fill refrigerant etc. I am afraid to start, get stuck and be unable to find anyone to help. Am I just not asking the right people??? Or is this a job that need to be done by a HVAC professional?? TIA

 

[roughneck]

Unless you have the tools it’s a job for a professional.
The tools can be bought but that will take you closer to the contractor bid price.
Sometimes you can find someone to do the connections and refrigerant work. Many times this person will NOT do the job properly.
On a rare occasion you can find someone that’s knowledgeable and will do it correctly.
You’ll also get either a limited or no warranty if you buy it yourself.

 

[DIYOkie]

Go to Facebook market place and look for an HVAC technician that will do the line work for you. Do your homework and go to the trouble of checking them out first. That's the only way to save money on the installation and purchase of the mini split, yet still get a professional to do the part you need one for.

Don't mention the specific services in the ad - just say you need someone to run the line set, leak test it, and release the refrigerant. Then when they reply, ask them what they do and verify they intend to leak test it with nitrogen, and pull a vacuum under 500 microns, and then release the refrigerant. Make sure it's at least those 3 things, or they don't plan on doing a good job at all.

Run away from good ole boys that waive off these steps, usually with some predictable good ole boy logic "I've been installing these for 500 years and never had one leak yet..."

If you don't want to go to that trouble, then hire them to do the whole job. Setting the inside unit, wiring and setting the condenser, all pretty easy DIY stuff and hate to pay someone to do that, especially when it's your house and you plan on doing a more thoughtful job.

But the line set work and all that is too important to risk - you need to get that part right.

 

[ggr]

Thanks Tim. Those are pretty much my thoughts...install inside and outside unit, have a professional install the copper lines....il ask aroud some more - so far I get that standard: we don't work on stuff we dont install. I am trying to save money by DIY....I guess the HVAC guys are trying to make money on the install .

Any suggestions on brand if I buy myself? I am leaning towards LG or Panasonic, but maybe they are all the same and I should jus go with some of the lesser known brands. THANKS....like any DIY's - IM TRYNG, just need a little help from my friends.

 

[tom_poconos]

The HVAC industry is pretty arrogant - just look at the way some of the HVAC industry forums treat DIY questions. This guy got grilled for asking about a 1-1/8" suction line, despite it being recommended in his Goodman manual, he got criticized for over sizing. A lot of the "technicians" in that thread are complete goons. There are many more examples on that forum. The "hey kid, leave it to the professionals" attitude really grinds me.

If you're an experienced DIYer and have the time, patience and tools you WILL do a better job than most HVAC guys, and you'll save a ton of money. Just read the manuals a few times and follow them to the letter (believe me, the HVAC guys in my area don't read the manuals or follow code). That said, leave the final refrigerant related tasks and startup to a technician.

The nice thing about mini-splits is the line sets have flare connections, so you don't need to do any brazing.

 

[DIYOkie]

Thanks Tim. Those are pretty much my thoughts...install inside and outside unit, have a professional install the copper lines....il ask aroud some more - so far I get that standard: we don't work on stuff we dont install. I am trying to save money by DIY....I guess the HVAC guys are trying to make money on the install .

Any suggestions on brand if I buy myself? I am leaning towards LG or Panasonic, but maybe they are all the same and I should jus go with some of the lesser known brands. THANKS....like any DIY's - IM TRYNG, just need a little help from my friends.

I will probably be scoffed at a bit for saying this, but I've had great luck with Pioneer mini splits. But I'm just using the the simple single zone kind, wall mounted head unit. 700 bucks for the 9,000 BTU model and almost 900 bucks for the 12,000 BTU model due to the 33' line set.

I hired the wrong guy for the 12,000 BTU line set work - keep in mind, I ran the line set myself, had it all bent and ready for the guy. But I didn't know anything about HVAC stuff, so I left it all to him. Dumb, dumb mistake on my part. That's how I learned my lesson about checking people out first and not doing research to at least know how things should be done.

It's now fixed since I got a good technician to work on it. Nitrogen leak test at 350 PSI, good vacuum and then put in 32 ozs of refrigerant per the manual.

The 9,000 BTU model I did all myself and it works great. Went to the trouble to research and learn it and just took the plunge and I love it.

Pioneers are super quiet, work fabulous. But I have no idea about longevity. That's a wild card, in my case.

 

[Fisher1871]

My father and his buddies are all hvac techs.

You are basically asking them to give you a huuuge discount - and if something is wrong with the work you did, you will probably blame them.

I wouldn't consider looking at the job if I were them. Or, if I did take it on, I'd still charge the full rate of an install.

 

[ggr]

well...I dont mean disrespect Fisher, but this is a DIY forum! I / WE are here to learn, try, do, fail, repeat, save money and become more proficient. I dont see the problem with that. I am hoping I will find someone to finish the job, and if I made mistakes coach me through them...and yes I will pay for their time. I understand your point, but that's not the point of this forum....or if it is I'm in the wrong place.

 

[user_12345a]

The HVAC industry is pretty arrogant - just look at the way some of the HVAC industry forums treat DIY questions. This guy got grilled for asking about a 1-1/8" suction line, despite it being recommended in his Goodman manual, he got criticized for over sizing. A lot of the "technicians" in that thread are complete goons. There are many more examples on that forum. The "hey kid, leave it to the professionals" attitude really grinds me.

If you're an experienced DIYer and have the time, patience and tools you WILL do a better job than most HVAC guys, and you'll save a ton of money. Just read the manuals a few times and follow them to the letter (believe me, the HVAC guys in my area don't read the manuals or follow code). That said, leave the final refrigerant related tasks and startup to a technician.

The nice thing about mini-splits is the line sets have flare connections, so you don't need to do any brazing.

the cost of the tools needed to do the refrigeration work can eat up any savings so it's not worth it for installing one system.

i believe an epa license is required even if the refrigerant is non ozone depleting.

 

[DIYOkie]

well...I dont mean disrespect Fisher, but this is a DIY forum! I / WE are here to learn, try, do, fail, repeat, save money and become more proficient. I dont see the problem with that. I am hoping I will find someone to finish the job, and if I made mistakes coach me through them...and yes I will pay for their time. I understand your point, but that's not the point of this forum....or if it is I'm in the wrong place.

No, you're not in the wrong place. The HVAC work entitlement attitude is common with any trade that uses licensing and limits who can work on things with laws. They will claim the necessity of doing this, and even cite consumer protection, as they simultaneously enjoy the benefits of an artificially limited supply of labor creating higher wages than would be with equal competition.

This leads to the bizarre mentality that you see in that post above, as if the work belongs to them, and you've stolen it when you did it yourself - your own stuff, your own house. Notice the mention of "discount" to pretend like labor performed by someone else was some kind of ripoff.

You can only do that if you believe it was your job, your work, to begin with. Licensing does that to otherwise normal clear thinking human beings. When I need a deck built, it doesn't belong to some licensed deck builder out there that I've screwed over when I build it myself. Bizarre, protectionist logic that's more creepy than I'm giving it due, actually.

Respect their trade, though. Go to the trouble to learn, appreciate the complexities and don't do short cuts. HVAC is incredibly complicated, and surprisingly scientific. Good HVAC techs are worth good money, no doubt. They've earned that.

 

[Fisher1871]

well...I dont mean disrespect Fisher, but this is a DIY forum! I / WE are here to learn, try, do, fail, repeat, save money and become more proficient. I dont see the problem with that. I am hoping I will find someone to finish the job, and if I made mistakes coach me through them...and yes I will pay for their time. I understand your point, but that's not the point of this forum....or if it is I'm in the wrong place.

That's a good point.

Due to the regulations and fines behind the service work, it may be difficult to find a tech to finish a job a homeowner started.

Hopefully you find someone. Another approach is if you are buddies with someone that may have the knowledge/skill set. Sometimes people are willing to give away something for free that they are unwilling to give a deep discount on.

 

[Fisher1871]

No, you're not in the wrong place. The HVAC work entitlement attitude is common with any trade that uses licensing and limits who can work on things with laws. They will claim the necessity of doing this, and even cite consumer protection, as they simultaneously enjoy the benefits of an artificially limited supply of labor creating higher wages than would be with equal competition.

This leads to the bizarre mentality that you see in that post above, as if the work belongs to them, and you've stolen it when you did it yourself - your own stuff, your own house. Notice the mention of "discount" to pretend like labor performed by someone else was some kind of ripoff.

You can only do that if you believe it was your job, your work, to begin with. Licensing does that to otherwise normal clear thinking human beings. When I need a deck built, it doesn't belong to some licensed deck builder out there that I've screwed over when I build it myself. Bizarre, protectionist logic that's more creepy than I'm giving it due, actually.

Respect their trade, though. Go to the trouble to learn, appreciate the complexities and don't do short cuts. HVAC is incredibly complicated, and surprisingly scientific. Good HVAC techs are worth good money, no doubt. They've earned that.

It's interesting you start with an arrogance of techs and then finish with a statement that HVAC is incredibly complicated and scientific.

I'm by no means an expert nor involved in the field - just buddies with people that are. They are hit up constantly with 'How do I fix this?', 'What is going on here?', 'Can I just buy a XX and it will work?'. People are daily calling for free repair advice.

It is not like building a deck - probably more like calling an IT business and asking them how to get your internet/printer network working...but not being willing to hire them to do the job.

 

[DIYOkie]

It's interesting you start with an arrogance of techs and then finish with a statement that HVAC is incredibly complicated and scientific.

I'm by no means an expert nor involved in the field - just buddies with people that are. They are hit up constantly with 'How do I fix this?', 'What is going on here?', 'Can I just buy a XX and it will work?'. People are daily calling for free repair advice.

It is not like building a deck - probably more like calling an IT business and asking them how to get your internet/printer network working...but not being willing to hire them to do the job.

Yes, arrogance of licensed labor markets is not a statement about competence of those labor markets.

People ask for free repair advice in every imaginable field without hiring them to do work. From hanging doors to fixing automobiles. This entire forum is dedicated the idea of free repair advice without willing to hire anyone for the job.

This is because you're conflating information exchange with potential labor services. As if no one should exchange information - free repair advice - because otherwise they'd be hiring someone. And somehow, not hiring someone is a negative value.

This implies being dependent on consumer ignorance, and finding objection when consumers are no longer as ignorant.

I find that flat out bizarre. And very telling.

Information exchange is a form of efficiency, related to the Broken Window fallacy. When we stop surfing pron and posting pictures of our fast food, we realize that information, itself, is a large part of what technicians like myself use to increase our value for labor services and the internet is an information repository, essentially.

By society having access to information to repair things in their lives, that's less total waste of human time and energy - remember, their money was time and energy to make before giving it to a tech to "fix a broken window".

Of course that reduces my value, and I don't like that. Just like businesses don't like competing with each other. Consumers win, forcing us to compete, creating a path for competence to win out, and incompetence to leave the market.

There are lots of licensed fields, and they all use these silly ideas to excuse themselves from the same mechanics that effect all other fields in society - every labor market has to deal with consumers refusing to consume their services, choosing to do things themselves, learning the information to circumvent expensive labor.

It's called competition. Making yourself valuable so your services are chosen, just like every other occupation.

 

[Porsche986S]

ggr: You stated this mini split will be used on a 3rd floor , what HVAC do you have on 1st and 2nd floor ? I ask because do you have someone that services that HVAC system ? That may be an " in " for a conversation about finishing the DIY install of the mini split . Also where are you located ? It's possible someone on here lives near you and can help .

I have installed two mini splits at two different houses , in each case I did the " rough install " and then had a " pro " come complete the jobs . I had no problem finding good HVAC techs to do this . One charged me 500.00 the other 300.00 . In each case they connected the copper lines which I ran , connected electrical which I ran . They both pulled a vacumn to eliminate any vapor/moisture and to check for leaks . In both cases all went as planned with no surprises .

Both of the units I installed were Mitsubishi , all the research I found stated Mitsubishi and Fujitsu were the top of line and are the most $$$ . I sold the first house and now we live in our retirement house , the 24K Mitsu is in my man cave garage . It is 24x26 with 12 ' high ceilings and is well insulated . The unit does an excellent job in both heating and cooling modes and is VERY economical on electric costs . I personally would stay away from the LG product line . Good luck with your choice .

 

[Porsche986S]

I am posting this link just as reference , this is the company and model I purchased from . I have NO dog in this hunt you can buy ANY brand from ANY place you want . Again just for reference .

https://www.budgetheating.com/Mini-Split-24K-BTU-Mitsubishi-18-SEER-with-remote-p/163126.htm

If you are going to do a DIY rough install then you will need to purchase all pieces for a clean install , that may include copper lines called line sets , AC wire , communication wire , drain hose , vinyl line chaise , insulation just as examples . Good luck

 

[ggr]

Great info everyone..thanks. There is a unit already there for the 2nd floor, but if I just taped into it then neither the 2nd or 3rd floor would cool properly...heat not a real problem down here in the "south". My plan is to attempt rough install...run lines, secure etc, and then find someone to connect..test etc. Just wanted some feedback, but as I suspected, it is a possible diy for "most" of the job. Thanks....any additional input greatly appreciated.

 

[roughneck]

Just be careful who you use to finish the installation.
As has been said by another poster, it’s easy to get someone to do it wrong. And then your left with the after effects.
The basic work is easy. It just requires the correct tools and knowledge.
Your looking for-
Proper leak check using nitrogen
Proper evacuation using a vacuum pump and micron gauge
Proper charging technique using the manual as a guide as to how much refrigerant to add

 

[roughneck]

Duplicate post

 

[TestyRossa]

I agree with the other post about the industry being full of know it alls. I had a full system installed in my house only to have them tear it back out. It was hacked from end to end and this was a huge company where I live with all the fancy vans and 24/7 service. If you have any DIY skills at all you can install these. A single zone system is simple. Take your time. The lineset is simple. They didn't use a tubing bender or anything. Ran it, covered it and connected. Just make sure the flares are clean and nice and nothing can get caught in the connection like a copper shaving or dirt. Use the nylog blue on the connections. Get a vacuum pump and suck it down. If it holds it's fine. I wouldn't worry about nitrogen unless it's a multi unit system with lines that have extensions. When the "pros" did mine I heard the same thing - "been doing this for tweedly dee and tweedly doo years". I had a massive leak from a poor flare they did. They never pressure tested and it was a total joke from day one. The companies are all doing these now because they charge totally unwarranted labor prices for a very low skillset job. These are installed all over the world in tropical climates because they are easy. Get an electrician for the disconnect if you don't want to tackle or it's strict by you.

 

[Hiskid]

The HVAC industry is pretty arrogant - just look at the way some of the HVAC industry forums treat DIY questions. technician.

Sad but true( hvac-talk diy) and I am a retired diy who worked off and on in the hvac field. Asked about some toggles on the hw th8320 and was just ignored with 200 views.