[svaic00]

Hello,

Have a few questions with regards to the setup of a 5.1 surround sound in a basement. We prefer to not have speakers on stands, most likely only want in-wall speakers so as to have a cleaner look, along with so that our little one doesn't try and do anything with the wires/speakers/stands that would be on the floor. I have attached a .jpg shot of some CAD plans I drew up of the basement, it is pretty close to being to scale.

TV is near the center of the wall, and placed approximately height wise where center of screen is at head height when seated. I have not purchased a receiver or speakers yet, so wanted to get input on speaker setup, along with potentially what kind of speakers to get.

Plan would be to put Front L/R and center speakers in wall with tv. For the rear speakers, I have two options, place them in the side wall, option A, or in the back wall, option B, as shown.

Questions I have are as follows:
1. For the front L/R speakers, I want to angle them so the speakers are pointed towards the center of the sitting area correct?

2. For the rear speakers, does it make any difference as to which option is better, A or B? Personally, we are leaning towards option B.

3. If we choose option A, do we want the speakers to be pointed towards each other, or angled somewhat towards the couch, (see .jpg drawing with the arrows)?

4. If we choose option B, do we want the speakers to be pointed straight forward, or angled somewhat towards the couch, (see .jpg drawing with the arrows)? (Note: there is a door that is drawn to be in front of one of the rear speakers, but that door will be closed pretty much at all times).

5. If any of the in wall speakers need to be angled, the speakers need to be on some sort of swivel bracket, as to be able to rotate them within the wall cavity, correct? We would need the front L/R speakers to be rotated right or left, and then the center speaker will most likely be rotated up, since it will probably be below the tv in the wall (no stand for tv or equipment, all the equipment is on the wall on floating shelves in a corner and tv is wall mounted).

6. With regards to being able to rotate the speakers, any type of speakers you guys recommend? Not looking for high end, but not bottom of the barrel, maybe $100-$200 a speaker? Do we need the speaker to be rotated, just the tweeter, or both? Not that knowledgeable with regards to speakers.

Receiver we are looking at says it can do 6 ohm at 140 watt per channel, or 8 ohm, 80 watt per channel. Pioneer Elite VSX-45 is one that we like, or a similar type of receiver from Yamaha or Denon.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[ktkelly]

Answers:

1. With inwall speakers, just angle the tweeters towards the primary seating, and keep the speakers away from the side walls, closer to the TV, no more than 8' apart.

2. Option A is MUCH better. With the speaker aimed directly at each other, and approximately 12 to 24" below the ceiling (above ear level when seated).

3. See above.

4. See #2.

5. Again, you simply aim the tweeters. No real need to angle a mid or bass.

6. Now you've opened a real can of worms. As a pro in the field, I lean towards higher end speakers, and I think your speaker budget is a bit low.

KEF speakers is my go to line, and Yamaha is my go to AVR. While I like Pioneer, I prefer the Yamaha Aventage line.

Need to mention the need for a subwoofer, as that's something the system should have. My go to here is Sunfire, and for a good deal, the SDS-8 will do a surprising job.


Hope this helps.

 

[svaic00]

Answers:

1. With inwall speakers, just angle the tweeters towards the primary seating, and keep the speakers away from the side walls, closer to the TV, no more than 8' apart.

2. Option A is MUCH better. With the speaker aimed directly at each other, and approximately 12 to 24" below the ceiling (above ear level when seated).

3. See above.

4. See #2.

5. Again, you simply aim the tweeters. No real need to angle a mid or bass.

6. Now you've opened a real can of worms. As a pro in the field, I lean towards higher end speakers, and I think your speaker budget is a bit low.

KEF speakers is my go to line, and Yamaha is my go to AVR. While I like Pioneer, I prefer the Yamaha Aventage line.

Need to mention the need for a subwoofer, as that's something the system should have. My go to here is Sunfire, and for a good deal, the SDS-8 will do a surprising job.


Hope this helps.

Thanks, just a few questions from your response.

1. Just curious, why is A so much better?

2. Is there a reason why the speakers should be pointed at each other, rather than angled towards the seating area (even just somewhat angled)?

3. I know I have seen diagrams online that supposedly show the ideal setup would be to have the surround speakers at ear level (or slightly above), to the left and right of the couch facing each other. But for our setup (or any setup in an open floor plan), that would mean you would need them on stands right next to the couch. I figured if that is the ideal setup, by moving the speakers further back, don't you want the speakers then pointed somewhat towards the seating area, or am I not looking at that correctly?

4. If I get a receiver that has 7.1, would I just set it up using both A and B options then, where option A would be the surround, and option B would be the surround rear?

5. Do most speakers have the ability to be able to aim just the tweeter, while leaving the mid or bass alone?

Was going to get a subwoofer, just haven't done any real research on that yet.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[ktkelly]

Answers:

1, 2 & 3.

A is so much better because that's the way Dolby Labs designed the system to work. If you've seen something online that said to have the speakers AT ear level, you saw something that was WRONG. The idea of having the speakers aimed directly at each other is to create a null (dead spot) in an attempt to have the sound not be directly detectable Ideally you won't actually "hear" that rear speaker.


4.

You are correct.

5.

No, most do not have tweeters that you can aim. You'll find this in a lot of inwall speakers though. The mid and bass do not generally move, so you don't aim them. Besides that level of sound is much less directional. Do your research on any speakers you think you want.

Also if you do go the 7.1 route, you don't need to have rears speakers with a tweeter you can aim, as they should face directly forward, well above ear level just the same as the surrounds.


You're definitely going to want a sub. That's what makes the REAL difference.

 

[Fix'n it]

all side and rear speakers should be at least 6' up. the reason for this = someone standing in front of one of the speeakers, if they were lower, would mess up the sound. and it also creates more of a spacious sound.

also. if you have high backed seats = will mess up the sound from all directions. mostly if they are a leather, vinyl, etc. cloth not so much.

subs are GREAT ! if you have "good" ones. but, if you have large mains, they are not mandatory.

 

[svaic00]

all side and rear speakers should be at least 6' up. the reason for this = someone standing in front of one of the speeakers, if they were lower, would mess up the sound. and it also creates more of a spacious sound.

also. if you have high backed seats = will mess up the sound from all directions. mostly if they are a leather, vinyl, etc. cloth not so much.

subs are GREAT ! if you have "good" ones. but, if you have large mains, they are not mandatory.

What is considered a large main, how big? Even then, would still potentially get a sub. The SDS-8 that ktkelly mentioned seemed pretty good and had good reviews.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[ktkelly]

all side and rear speakers should be at least 6' up. the reason for this = someone standing in front of one of the speakers, if they were lower, would mess up the sound. and it also creates more of a spacious sound.

also. if you have high backed seats = will mess up the sound from all directions. mostly if they are a leather, vinyl, etc. cloth not so much.

Those are not the "real" reasons, but both would have some effect.

subs are GREAT ! if you have "good" ones. but, if you have large mains, they are not mandatory.

For the OP. What I think he means is that if you have large front speakers, you don't need a sub. In theory he's correct, but in practice I cannot agree. Even with a large front pair, a sub will pay off.

 

[Bob Sanders]

Get a high end audio/video reciever, and speaker placement becomes a bit less important. Now that doesn't mean you can place a front speaker in the back of the room or something to that extreme, but a higher end receiver will come with its own fully automatic EQ/balancing system which will actually listen to your speakers and deliver a flat response even when the speakers are not very well placed.

Plug the (supplied) mic into the front panel and place it in the front-center listening position, and hit the GO button. The system will run sound tests for each speaker and automatically adjust EQ, distance, and gain for the best overall sound and flattest response. This will be especially good for speakers you plan on building in because you will not be able to move them very easily in order to trim the sound

Most if not all the higher end receivers have this feature (Yamaha, Onkyo, Marantz, Pioneer....) and it is a feature well worth it since setting up proper surround by ear is no small task.

 

[Fix'n it]

What is considered a large main, how big?

Even then, would still potentially get a sub. The SDS-8 that ktkelly mentioned seemed pretty good and had good reviews.

Thanks,
Steve

well, i have dual 8" driver towers, with a XPA-3 amp.
but basically = if the speaker is heavy, its large.


SUNFIRE, used to be good stuff. i have no experience with them now.
but that does look like a good basic sub. but don't get high expectations.
for me, to use that sub, i would need at least 4 of them.
does that thing really weigh only 20#s ? my 12" drivers weigh more than that.
2 sds-12's would be good (enough).

 

[Fix'n it]

Those are not the "real" reasons, but both would have some effect.




For the OP. What I think he means is that if you have large front speakers, you don't need a sub. In theory he's correct, but in practice I cannot agree. Even with a large front pair, a sub will pay off.

ok, what are the real reasons ?

i "know" i'm correct = for most people. hence the "not mandatory".
i have 2 subs, powered by a EP2500. most people would call them humongous. to me, they only do ok in the room. so i moved them to directly behind my seat. most people would call me insane .
4 18"s in a closest and 2 ep2500's are in the plans.

 

[Fix'n it]

Get a high end audio/video reciever, and speaker placement becomes a bit less important. Now that doesn't mean you can place a front speaker in the back of the room or something to that extreme, but a higher end receiver will come with its own fully automatic EQ/balancing system which will actually listen to your speakers and deliver a flat response even when the speakers are not very well placed.

Plug the (supplied) mic into the front panel and place it in the front-center listening position, and hit the GO button. The system will run sound tests for each speaker and automatically adjust EQ, distance, and gain for the best overall sound and flattest response. This will be especially good for speakers you plan on building in because you will not be able to move them very easily in order to trim the sound

Most if not all the higher end receivers have this feature (Yamaha, Onkyo, Marantz, Pioneer....) and it is a feature well worth it since setting up proper surround by ear is no small task.

while this is true. it would not compensate for poorly placed and/or crappy speakers.

 

[Bob Sanders]

while this is true. it would not compensate for poorly placed and/or crappy speakers.

It does a surprisingly good job. I have a fairly good Pioneer 9.2 channel (Pioneer Elite SC-85) and I ran crappy speakers on it for a while before I got my good ones. It fared better than I expected. I played around with speaker placement and the system brought the speakers pretty close to a flat response in a rather large number of speaker placements and angles.

If you're building speakers in then I would seriously recommend an auto calibration system.

 

[Fix'n it]

perhaps your speakers were not as crappy as you thought.
and/or your expectations were not high ( no offence).
point being = everyone has different expectations. i once saw a system where the FL main was at eye height, and the RF was way up on a shelf far right. and the owner said they sounded great = NO WAY IN HELL they sounded great. even if they were B&w's.
and to top it off, they were bose

 

[Fix'n it]

oh

i also have a ELITE with the calibrater. just ran it last weekend.

i need some new sides. mine are not large enough. RVSS

 

[ktkelly]

ok, what are the real reasons ?

The real reasons are that the speakers MUST be diametrically opposed so to create a null.

The variance here is that with some inwall speakers you can aim the tweeters if the speakers are a bit off axis.


Makes sense?

 

[Fix'n it]

The real reasons are that the speakers MUST be diametrically opposed so to create a null.

The variance here is that with some inwall speakers you can aim the tweeters if the speakers are a bit off axis.


Makes sense?

of course it makes sense. but if they are bookshelfs set on the floor, diametrically opposed or not, they will sound like crap.
they must be free of all obstructions. that is why putting them on floor stands is a bad idea, in most cases. dedicated listening/veiwing rooms could get by.

 

[Fix'n it]

here is a perfect example of POOR surround placement.
the front seats getting proper ballance from the surrounds = the back seats get blasted out. and most of the rear sound is bouncing off the back of the chairs.
POOR settup.

http://cdn.soundandvision.com/images/032713_elementsofHT_back view.jpg

 

[Bob Sanders]

of course it makes sense. but if they are bookshelfs set on the floor, diametrically opposed or not, they will sound like crap.
they must be free of all obstructions. that is why putting them on floor stands is a bad idea, in most cases. dedicated listening/viewing rooms could get by.

Well, even a properly placed speaker can sound awful, The shape of the room, the furniture, the carpet... etc, all have an effect on the way a speaker sounds. My pioneer spits out a graph (through lan to my computer) of the unadjusted frequency response vs the readjusted response and the difference is even noticeable by something as simple as repositioning a set of chairs in the room.... but it can take a set of pretty crappy, badly placed speakers and flatten out the response curve pretty good. Of course there is only so much you can do with electronic adjustment. You can't make a rear speaker sound good if it's placed in the front of the room and you can only 'dress up' a crappy speaker so well.... but as long as you get the speakers in the right ballpark, with a system of this nature you can be assured they will always sound as best as they can.

The other problem with surround is that with 6 speakers (and more in some cases) it's pretty difficult to get the balance correct. This system makes it a snap.

 

[ktkelly]

of course it makes sense. but if they are bookshelfs set on the floor, diametrically opposed or not, they will sound like crap.
they must be free of all obstructions. that is why putting them on floor stands is a bad idea, in most cases. dedicated listening/veiwing rooms could get by.

Bookshelf speakers on the floor?


Now you're just being silly.

 

[Fix'n it]

Bookshelf speakers on the floor?


Now you're just being silly.

yeah, that is silly. but i was making a point. ya just can't slap the chit together and expect it to work well.